I believe that should not be a valid defense, ever.
If you’re not OK with what you’re ordered to do, you should not do it (and we should have a system of justice and social support which honors that).
If you actually do something you’re responsible for that deed, ie possibly culpable.
If you’re being pressured/manipulated/… the person doing so is responsible for that, so culpable as well - but notin place - if applicable.
German law actually contains an apologetic first step in this direction, called ‘Remonstration’. I think we can all guess how it wound up in that particular legal system.
Besides being able to point at the article and say “see, we fixed it”, I’m not aware of a single (let alone significant) case where it was actually/successfully used.
In somewhat interesting contrast, German law does not codify protection of whistle blowers, for example.
I have mixed feelings on the matter. When the state can force you to comitt atrocities each person is going to have to weigh at what point are they willing to forfeit their own lives.
If your military is committing war crimes then they’re probably not above imprisioning you for a very long time or just executing you. So at what point does your morals outweigh your innate drive to survive? This gets more complicated if you have a family back home.
Of course this goes away when you are looking at a voluntary military. Part of the reason the US went this route. They can grab the desperate/poor and feed them into the war machine. The average citizen then ignores the suffering and the country never creates ladders out of poverty so they can keep a steady supply of soldiers.
Had someone from the IDF explain to me why they are the most moral army in the world.
He told me that they are ordered to disobey illegal order (wow,really? like every army in the world technically does?)
He then explained that they have absolute trust in orders because it is the most moral army in the world, and defying an order is a crime, because the order cannot be immoral or illegal because the IDF is the most moral army in the world.
I think I stopped the conversation around there, because I doubt they can understand basic logic that goes beyond propaganda.
Last I heard of him he was sad because he got alcoholism from doing minor war crimes in gaza, just casually talking about the things he looted, which he considers “rescuing” from the rubble.
In somewhat interesting contrast, German law does not codify protection of whistle blowers, for example.
No, there is the Hinweisgeberschutzgesetz from 2023, which does codify whistleblowing. I have no idea how good it is and it is new enough that it has to prove itself in the real world, but then again codify is a low bar.
Disagree. One of the main purposes of military training (in most, maybe all, cases) is to strip everyone of their individual autonomy.
If you’re not OK with what you’re ordered to do, you should not do it
The problem with this that soldiers are explicitly trained to not even consider their own judgement of their orders. They don’t stop, judge, then pull the trigger. They just pull the trigger. If they disobey an order, they’re court martialed. It’s the military’s justice system that then gets to decide if the order was unlawful. The system is designed to strip soldiers of their power.
If a 28yo enlists, they share some responsibility simply by knowingly joining an immoral organization. But most new recruits are in high school. They don’t know what the hell is going on.
All this to say: the leaders who have stripped young boys of their autonomy in order to have them commit horrific acts that will scar them for life in order to protect their own regime, they’re the real villains. I see the individual soldiers as victims.
If you’re being pressured/manipulated/… the person doing so is responsible for that, so culpable as well - but not in place - if applicable.
This would then also be valid for young people being brainwashed into blindly following orders. Nonetheless, I feel like they still are partly responsible. And all those soldiers abusing their power and committing atrocities are also responsible for that (although the structure they are in also enables and produces this abuse).
I believe that should not be a valid defense, ever.
If you’re not OK with what you’re ordered to do, you should not do it (and we should have a system of justice and social support which honors that).
If you actually do something you’re responsible for that deed, ie possibly culpable.
If you’re being pressured/manipulated/… the person doing so is responsible for that, so culpable as well - but not in place - if applicable.
German law actually contains an apologetic first step in this direction, called ‘Remonstration’. I think we can all guess how it wound up in that particular legal system.
Besides being able to point at the article and say “see, we fixed it”, I’m not aware of a single (let alone significant) case where it was actually/successfully used.
In somewhat interesting contrast, German law does not codify protection of whistle blowers, for example.
I have mixed feelings on the matter. When the state can force you to comitt atrocities each person is going to have to weigh at what point are they willing to forfeit their own lives.
If your military is committing war crimes then they’re probably not above imprisioning you for a very long time or just executing you. So at what point does your morals outweigh your innate drive to survive? This gets more complicated if you have a family back home.
Of course this goes away when you are looking at a voluntary military. Part of the reason the US went this route. They can grab the desperate/poor and feed them into the war machine. The average citizen then ignores the suffering and the country never creates ladders out of poverty so they can keep a steady supply of soldiers.
All in all it’s pretty fucked
Had someone from the IDF explain to me why they are the most moral army in the world.
He told me that they are ordered to disobey illegal order (wow,really? like every army in the world technically does?)
He then explained that they have absolute trust in orders because it is the most moral army in the world, and defying an order is a crime, because the order cannot be immoral or illegal because the IDF is the most moral army in the world.
I think I stopped the conversation around there, because I doubt they can understand basic logic that goes beyond propaganda.
Last I heard of him he was sad because he got alcoholism from doing minor war crimes in gaza, just casually talking about the things he looted, which he considers “rescuing” from the rubble.
No, there is the Hinweisgeberschutzgesetz from 2023, which does codify whistleblowing. I have no idea how good it is and it is new enough that it has to prove itself in the real world, but then again codify is a low bar.
Disagree. One of the main purposes of military training (in most, maybe all, cases) is to strip everyone of their individual autonomy.
The problem with this that soldiers are explicitly trained to not even consider their own judgement of their orders. They don’t stop, judge, then pull the trigger. They just pull the trigger. If they disobey an order, they’re court martialed. It’s the military’s justice system that then gets to decide if the order was unlawful. The system is designed to strip soldiers of their power.
If a 28yo enlists, they share some responsibility simply by knowingly joining an immoral organization. But most new recruits are in high school. They don’t know what the hell is going on.
All this to say: the leaders who have stripped young boys of their autonomy in order to have them commit horrific acts that will scar them for life in order to protect their own regime, they’re the real villains. I see the individual soldiers as victims.
This would then also be valid for young people being brainwashed into blindly following orders. Nonetheless, I feel like they still are partly responsible. And all those soldiers abusing their power and committing atrocities are also responsible for that (although the structure they are in also enables and produces this abuse).
gross. Although in the US the law is pretty much useless, so I guess at least Germany is honest? 🤷♀️