such as like this:
The concept of gender identity is said to be real as an experience, (like how theists claim to see god [a claim basically]), but scientifically under-defined, weakly grounded biologically, and sometimes treated as more fixed or explanatory than current evidence justifies.
This is my main issue with modern gender theory, honestly. From natural reasoning, either gender is a fixed biological reality, or it’s completely irrelevant, non existent and a man-made concept. Sure, I can respect how other people identify, but if gender is simply a social construct, then I don’t understand how someone could be transgender.
So for someone to feel gender dysphoria, I believe that there should be some form of biological reality; even if we haven’t pinned it down yet. Maybe something to do with what chromosomes or hormones affect the mind compared to the body, or something else causing it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Not really my business anyway so I don’t care that much, as long as the person in question is comfortable and healthy, regardless of my understanding.
I don’t understand how you can’t? Society constructed it, so it exists. Take a rudimentary construction.
A house. There isn’t a “house” partical/chemical/gene/brain structure. Does that mean the house doesn’t exist? Society didn’t have to construct a house, it could have constructed a road or a bus stop, does that mean the house doesn’t exist?
The house exists, we can point to it, we can point to the effects it has on the world: it’s a house now, you can’t just walk in without the owner’s permission or society will punish you.
I have no idea whether gender has a physical component particle/chemical/gene/brain structure/… But, even granting it doesn’t, it doesn’t mean gender doesn’t exist. Gender not having a physical component could mean gender doesn’t have to exist.
Like the house, it didn’t have to exist. It doesn’t have to be protected by society the way it currently is. It doesn’t always have to be a house. It still exists though.
For my own anecdote. I identify as a man, but I don’t really identify with how man is performed. Like “man” is a what I am, not so much a who I am. So, I’d lean that gender has some physical “what” component.
Equally, no-one can see my man partical/chemical/gene/brain structure/… but they have no problem identifying me as a man, (though not a particularly manly one), so who the fuck knows.
I’m privileged enough to not question my gender, or have it questioned. So, what I think means diddly.
Sure, you can be assigned a gender at birth, but if gender is meaningless then why would you feel the need to change it?
A house is different to a factory by most definitions, so they are different. If men and women are equal in capability of skill, then I don’t see why you’d want to change it. Again, I don’t criticise someone’s decision, that’s their decision, but there must be something (not excluding something a dysphoria that could have been present since birth, or saying something stupid like “xyz causes transgender”) causing them to question their gender.
But it isn’t meaningless. Society gives meaning to gender. Woman means dresses, man means beard. It’s discordant when you see a person with a beard in a dress. Less so now, as we’re pushing against gender being what defines fashion.
A house has meaning, there are specific laws and regulations that govern how you and I interact with it, but there’s nothing fundamentally "House"y about it. Remove all society and that building is just a building.
That doesn’t mean that “House” is meaningless, it isnt. “House” could be meaningless, but it isn’t currently. We give it meaning.
Taking the least gracious interpretation of transgender: gender is entirely performative. A person assigned Male at Birth grows up thinking that: how 'Man" is performed sucks, but how “woman” is performed is awesome. That’s still, as we agree, a valid experience.
Honestly, I don’t think that Trans people want to be trans. What about the trans experience is attractive to you that makes you think people want it? The meds? The surgery? The bigotry they face? The gender dysphoria? Is it the chosen family because many of them were disowned by their biological one? They go through these things because not doing so would be worse for them personally.
I never said the trans experience was attractive. However, some people make it an aesthetic and romanticise it. Although I don’t think the average transgender person does this. People also romanticise difficult periods in time such as the Second World War or the Troubles in Northern Ireland. I’m just trying to figure things out. I guess a third position is then that “gender is meaningless, but just play along”. Possibly similar to a position of “there is no objective morality, just play along” which I cannot seemingly rationalise. Abolishing the idea of gender entirely seems more rational ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Thrice you’ve asserted gender as meaningless. Twice I’ve shown you it isn’t.
A house isn’t just a building. It’s society that gives the building meaning and power. Turning the construction of brick and glass into a “house”. Society gives the construction “House” meaning, it gives it power, it gives it protection. Just because without society all that meaning falls away, doesn’t mean it doesn’t have meaning at all. It has the meaning society is currently giving it. Now thrice I’ve shown you it isn’t meaningless.
Perhaps. It’s probably a good idea to try. If nothing else we can stop using gender to oppress people. If gender doesn’t have any meaning, what idea would you be abolishing? Your second point undermines your first assertion. Why abolish something meaningless? It’s meaningless.
It might turn out that there is a “man” chemical/gene expression/brain structure. All I can tell you is that I am a man. Where my “Manness” comes from be it societal construction, or some biological function I don’t know. I’m comfortable being a man, I’m comfortable being labeled a man, I’m not forced to confront it.
What is it that you think makes it attractive to them? The meds? The surgery? The bigotry they face? The gender dysphoria? Is it the chosen family because many of them were disowned by their biological one? The shorter life spans? The increased chance of having violence visited upon them? They go through these things because not doing so would be worse for them personally.
I didn’t assert that gender was meaningless. I asserted that from natural reasoning, either it’s meaningless or a biological binary fact. I am criticising people who are both claiming gender is meaningless but also strongly argue for the likes of neopronouns, etc. If gender is non-binary then that idea of a non-binary is essentially a modern concept that’s popped up in the past decades, rather than something you can argue is either a biological binary from the beginning of man or an oppressive social structure built upon sex.
Same thing that makes rationing, hiding in air raid shelters, having men in you and your friends family sent home in boxes, or terrorist attacks, constantly looking behind you, getting searched, etc.
You mean from fallacy
False dichotomy, it could be a third thing. Also the idea that “socially constructed” things are somehow unworthy of consideration, or irrelevant is not true. Consider some things that we know are “man-made”: sovereignty, laws, borders, language, authority, religion, democracy, human-rights, and class. Think those things are “irrelevant”?
I mean as opposed to ideological reasoning. Natural reasoning is a conclusion that I can come up without any form of ideology or worldview.
Explain the “third thing?” It would really help considering my whole comment is about how I cannot rationalise a third position.
If gender is man-made, I don’t see what positive purpose it serves.
Most children and teenagers with gender dysphoria grow out of it on their own. Giving children and teens easy access to strong drugs that will affect their whole future life, is something that should be questioned. Children know little, struggle to find their identity, are easily influenced, and often make stupid decisions. Societal roles help children orient and find their way around the world. How can we expect a child to understand something as complex as gender fully to make an informed decision?
Gender dysphoria rarely comes alone, usually it’s comorbid with a bunch of other psychological issues. Then transition is often presented as the one treatment that will fix everything. It often fails to do that.
Trans issues are mental health issues. They have been politicized by making it about identity and attaching it to the political struggle of gay and bi people. No other mental health issue has that kind of political clout and rigid ideology attached to it. The political activism has glued itself to radical ideas.
Scientific research into trans issues has become difficult to conduct, because if you have the „wrong“ results, you might not have a career and be labeled transphobic. In the end it’s trans people themselves who suffer the most from this.
Helping people live a healthy and fulfilling life should be the goal. If someone transitioning is the only thing that helps someone, then by all means go for it.
Do you have statistics to back this up?
Do puberty blockers have this effect?
Any more statistics?
I would agree that this is something that we should be concerned about. I think a recent example was the Cass report in the UK.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.2147/AHMT.S135432
Puberty blockers are a strong change in your life and a severe intrusion into the natural development of a body. Instead of going through puberty like most other kids, the child will be behind in their physical development by years. That can lead to social and psychological problems of course.
There’s generally not much quality research into the long term effects, as you can read repeatedly in [the Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty_blocker#Research).
As for transitioning not resolving the psychological issues, those choosing to detransition are the best proof. https://segm.org/first_large_study_of_detransitioners
I haven’t bothered to look for data concerning the long term mental health of those who transition. I only have lots of anecdotes from conversations with trans folk over the years. That’s of course not representative.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36151828/
That’s very enlightening and thought-provoking material. The detransition figures about people being abandoned is disturbing. Thank you for this.
As for the mental health issues- some could argue that the Gender Dysphoria causes these issues, and that these issues are side effects of Gender Dysphoria. So I’m not too sure if existing mental health issues invalidates gender dysphoria.
It’s not about invalidation. It’s about the case of lost and mentally unwell people finding out about transgender, then find a welcoming community, that accepts them. They get presented a simple explanation on why they don’t feel like themselves and a path through that. If other people (like the parents) shed doubt on this, they can be called transphobic and face social consequences. So if someone grabs onto this, they get treatment in the form of hormone pills pretty much immediately under informed consent.
Differential diagnosis for mental health issues is never easy. One mental health issue can easily cause others. The major difference is that gender and being trans can become a big part of one’s identity. You don’t get that to that extent with other disorders.
Especially the overlap with autism is interesting and not obviouS. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/european-psychiatry/article/crossing-boundaries-unraveling-the-link-between-gender-dysphoria-and-autism/DB33E9208EF32A46C4AE83D9B673F498
I invite you to seek out interviews with detransitioners and people who used to work in gender affirming care, if you want to learn about Trans issues from someone besides activists.
That said trans people are real and some benefit from transitioning. The very charged political climate around this health care issue, creates problems for trans and non trans folk alike.
I am autistic and used to be led into believing I was non binary by a friend group. Thankfully I am out of that group. Ironically, they were the most intolerant people I knew (I wouldn’t have cared if they civilly disagreed with me on some issues, but they wouldn’t.) Meanwhile the evangelical church my family had belonged to, that I went to when I was younger, welcomed me back in with open arms despite civilly disagreeing with my identity and view on gender at the time.