So people who live in a country aren’t responsible for the actions of their government? Then why hold the American people responsible for Venezuela? Why should they be expected to protest? The government just does what it does.
That user is saying that the fact that Russians face more danger for protesting means that any lack of protest reflects less poorly on Russian people than on Americans who face less danger, not that this is a win for the Russian government.
You are making a separate argument. @[email protected] was saying that Americans can dissent more easily, so the lack of dissent reflects more poorly on them than on Russians. Regardless of the fact that genuine radicals are violently suppressed in America (true), it’s clear that the average American is fairly content (and often even thrilled) to live with the violence their government has perpetrated abroad for its entire existence.
To address your completely separate argument, the fact is that Russians are held responsible MATERIALLY (not just in the moral judgements of others or in social media posts, but by sanctions and travel bans) for the actions of their government and Americans are not.
Edit: tagged the wrong user.
Edit 2: I missed this when replying.
Russia brutality suppresses dissent because, at some level, the Russian people and culture accepts it.
How familiar are you with recent Russian history? Do you have any idea what the 90s where like, how the country stabilized, and which politicians had prominent public roles in that? There’s a reason Putin has some support, people are obviously terrified that life will go back to how it was in the 90s before he took power. This judgement of blaming Russian “culture” for this rather than the neoliberal shock therapy and rampant nazism and social murder of the 1990s strikes me as borderline racism or at least ignorance of the subject that should prevent you from making such judgements.
That user is saying that the fact that Russians face more danger for protesting means that any lack of protest reflects less poorly on Russian people than on Americans
And, as I said, Americans face plenty of risk too, but only if they do the kinds of protests that actually might achieve something. No, the US government isn’t going to murder a protester’s entire family, but they will lock up the breadwinner and leave the kids with no safety net programs. Plus, you can forget ever getting a decent job once you have a conviction on your record. Americans also have more, so they have more to lose. The risks are different, but just as real.
You are making a separate argument.
Of course I am. It would be pretty silly to make the same (bad) argument - even flipping the sides. Do you think they are prepared to admit that the US has more freedom, because I sincerely doubt it.
the average American is fairly content (and often even thrilled) to live with the violence their government has perpetrated
Absolutely false. These foreign interventions are always extremely unpopular, including the topic at hand. The ruling class is another matter entirely, but average Americans do not back these interventions. I will agree they have a tendency to ignore many of the less noisy interventions, but that’s true everywhere. If things are working in people’s favor, they don’t tend to dwell on them - unfortunately.
Also, the majority of Americans do not support Trump or the Republicans. Were it not for our fucked up election system and a whole lot of help from mother Russia, the Republicans would have zero power at the national level.
How familiar are you with recent Russian history?
Familiar enough. I’m not unsympathetic, but it doesn’t invalidate anybody the arguments I made.
people are obviously terrified that life will go back to how it was in the 90s before he took power.
You don’t think that MAGA is motivated by terror? Rural America is collapsing, and they have been taught to fear the cities their entire lives, not to mention the fact that they have no skills to get a job there, and no money to find a place to live. Russia has no monopoly on fear.
This judgement of blaming Russian “culture” for this rather than the neoliberal shock therapy
How familiar are you with extended Russian history? Russia was like this long before they could blame it on “the west”. I do blame Russian culture, just like I blame American (especially southern) culture for it’s problems. We’ve all got cultural baggage.
rampant nazism and social murder of the 1990s
Bullshit. There is no more Nazism in the US than anywhere else - at least until fairly recently. (And it would be great if the Nazis weren’t all getting Russian funding). There has certainly been an odor of fascism in the neoliberal consensus. I’ll give you that but, again, I’m not sure America is different from anywhere else in that regard.
Of course I am. It would be pretty silly to make the same (bad) argument
No, I mean you are no longer discussing Wildmimic’s comment or the point of the comic (which were both comparisons between how Russians and Americans ARE treated, in reality). You’re making a separate argument that is beside the point.
Do you think they are prepared to admit that the US has more freedom, because I sincerely doubt it.
If “they” is Wildmimic, they clearly did so in their original comment. That was the whole point of the comment, actually, that Americans were more free to protest.
Absolutely false. These foreign interventions are always extremely unpopular, including the topic at hand.
American support for the Iraq war was about 75% before it started and reached above 90% during the early days of the war. Arguing that foreign intervention is always unpopular in America is simply a denial of reality. As a general rule, Americans have been easily convinced to support these interventions unless they felt they were substantially personally affected in a negative way, as was the case (for example) during the later days of the Vietnam War or of the Iraq War.
You don’t think that MAGA is motivated by terror? Rural America is collapsing, and they have been taught to fear the cities their entire lives, not to mention the fact that they have no skills to get a job there, and no money to find a place to live. Russia has no monopoly on fear.
We can revisit this when MAGA has had to deal in living memory with rampant child prostitution and death due to poverty, as well as roving squads of nazis committing murder with impunity in the streets. To even compare the very real experiences of Russians in the 90s to the possible fears of Americans today is ridiculous. The 1990s caused 3 million excess deaths in Russia based on 1991 mortality. I’ve become convinced reading your reply that you don’t actually understand Russian history as well as you think you do.
There is no more Nazism in the US than anywhere else - at least until fairly recently.
First of all, the nazis were inspired in part by manifest destiny and American racism. Second, that line referred to Russia, not the US. It was Russia where nazi gangs acted with impunity in the 1990s under Yeltsin - who was installed with the help of the Americans, which they bragged about at the time.
(And it would be great if the Nazis weren’t all getting Russian funding).
This is just Russiagate nonsense. Your genocidal settler colony doesn’t need Russian influence in order to be racist (founded on slavery, which is still legal if you bother to charge the enslaved with a crime first), and whatever minor meddling Russians might or might not have done in recent developments (again, America has always been a white supremacist nation) did not have a significant impact, especially compared to domestic factors and even other lobbies such as the “Israelis” (another genocidal gem in the empire’s crown, which wouldn’t exist today if not for America). I think you and I are unlikely to find common ground because we see a fundamentally different version of your country.
That user is saying that the fact that Russians face more danger for protesting means that any lack of protest reflects less poorly on Russian people than on Americans who face less danger, not that this is a win for the Russian government.
You are making a separate argument. @[email protected] was saying that Americans can dissent more easily, so the lack of dissent reflects more poorly on them than on Russians. Regardless of the fact that genuine radicals are violently suppressed in America (true), it’s clear that the average American is fairly content (and often even thrilled) to live with the violence their government has perpetrated abroad for its entire existence.
To address your completely separate argument, the fact is that Russians are held responsible MATERIALLY (not just in the moral judgements of others or in social media posts, but by sanctions and travel bans) for the actions of their government and Americans are not.
Edit: tagged the wrong user.
Edit 2: I missed this when replying.
How familiar are you with recent Russian history? Do you have any idea what the 90s where like, how the country stabilized, and which politicians had prominent public roles in that? There’s a reason Putin has some support, people are obviously terrified that life will go back to how it was in the 90s before he took power. This judgement of blaming Russian “culture” for this rather than the neoliberal shock therapy and rampant nazism and social murder of the 1990s strikes me as borderline racism or at least ignorance of the subject that should prevent you from making such judgements.
And, as I said, Americans face plenty of risk too, but only if they do the kinds of protests that actually might achieve something. No, the US government isn’t going to murder a protester’s entire family, but they will lock up the breadwinner and leave the kids with no safety net programs. Plus, you can forget ever getting a decent job once you have a conviction on your record. Americans also have more, so they have more to lose. The risks are different, but just as real.
Of course I am. It would be pretty silly to make the same (bad) argument - even flipping the sides. Do you think they are prepared to admit that the US has more freedom, because I sincerely doubt it.
Absolutely false. These foreign interventions are always extremely unpopular, including the topic at hand. The ruling class is another matter entirely, but average Americans do not back these interventions. I will agree they have a tendency to ignore many of the less noisy interventions, but that’s true everywhere. If things are working in people’s favor, they don’t tend to dwell on them - unfortunately.
Also, the majority of Americans do not support Trump or the Republicans. Were it not for our fucked up election system and a whole lot of help from mother Russia, the Republicans would have zero power at the national level.
Familiar enough. I’m not unsympathetic, but it doesn’t invalidate anybody the arguments I made.
You don’t think that MAGA is motivated by terror? Rural America is collapsing, and they have been taught to fear the cities their entire lives, not to mention the fact that they have no skills to get a job there, and no money to find a place to live. Russia has no monopoly on fear.
How familiar are you with extended Russian history? Russia was like this long before they could blame it on “the west”. I do blame Russian culture, just like I blame American (especially southern) culture for it’s problems. We’ve all got cultural baggage.
Bullshit. There is no more Nazism in the US than anywhere else - at least until fairly recently. (And it would be great if the Nazis weren’t all getting Russian funding). There has certainly been an odor of fascism in the neoliberal consensus. I’ll give you that but, again, I’m not sure America is different from anywhere else in that regard.
No, I mean you are no longer discussing Wildmimic’s comment or the point of the comic (which were both comparisons between how Russians and Americans ARE treated, in reality). You’re making a separate argument that is beside the point.
If “they” is Wildmimic, they clearly did so in their original comment. That was the whole point of the comment, actually, that Americans were more free to protest.
American support for the Iraq war was about 75% before it started and reached above 90% during the early days of the war. Arguing that foreign intervention is always unpopular in America is simply a denial of reality. As a general rule, Americans have been easily convinced to support these interventions unless they felt they were substantially personally affected in a negative way, as was the case (for example) during the later days of the Vietnam War or of the Iraq War.
We can revisit this when MAGA has had to deal in living memory with rampant child prostitution and death due to poverty, as well as roving squads of nazis committing murder with impunity in the streets. To even compare the very real experiences of Russians in the 90s to the possible fears of Americans today is ridiculous. The 1990s caused 3 million excess deaths in Russia based on 1991 mortality. I’ve become convinced reading your reply that you don’t actually understand Russian history as well as you think you do.
First of all, the nazis were inspired in part by manifest destiny and American racism. Second, that line referred to Russia, not the US. It was Russia where nazi gangs acted with impunity in the 1990s under Yeltsin - who was installed with the help of the Americans, which they bragged about at the time.
This is just Russiagate nonsense. Your genocidal settler colony doesn’t need Russian influence in order to be racist (founded on slavery, which is still legal if you bother to charge the enslaved with a crime first), and whatever minor meddling Russians might or might not have done in recent developments (again, America has always been a white supremacist nation) did not have a significant impact, especially compared to domestic factors and even other lobbies such as the “Israelis” (another genocidal gem in the empire’s crown, which wouldn’t exist today if not for America). I think you and I are unlikely to find common ground because we see a fundamentally different version of your country.