Ah, searching is super difficult on Bluesky but I finally managed to find something relevant using Google and the site: function. Here is what it had to say in https://bsky.app/profile/lagotrasimeno.bsky.social/post/3lzwma6eg7k2l:

New here Just exploring some alternatives to the always more nazi-like policies and TOS of Reddit and X. So far I’ve tried Mastodon (which is dead btw) and Lemmy, the so-called best alternative to Reddit whose community is even more toxic than the original. This seems pretty chill 🤷 maybe too much?

(Bold emphasis added)

I am not trying to be negative, at least not for its own sake. This is legitimately what I see that people are saying about us here. Certainly not all of them to be fair - some people on other platforms love us here - but from the perspective of diagnosing why are many people leaving, and what do they say about us when they do, this is the top #1 cited reason that I have seen: our toxicity. And I cannot think of any better example of that than hexbear.net, which is why I am such a fan of either outright defederation if that is the only option, or at least making that instance opt-in rather than force it to be opt-out, which apparently seems to cause many people to flee us and go either back to Reddit or to Bluesky or whatever, hence opting out of the entire Threadiverse. Basically: either hexbear goes, or the newbie users do. And even that is only a start to reducing our overall toxicity level as presented to newbie users, though PieFed at least has several wonderful tools to help with that built-in already:-).

Has anything changed since a year ago in this regard though? Tankies are still here, lemmy.ml not defederated from anywhere, hexbear almost disappeared but managed to come back. We made discuss.online a better landing space for newbies, but now the shift is more towards PieFed, which I mentioned several thoughts about in a separate thread.

Not only on Reddit, even on Lemmy there are a bunch of people bashing on the tankies being present on Lemmy, in that community e.g. in the recent discussion at https://piefed.zip/c/fedibridge/p/795307/r-redditalternatives-comments-ask-for-alternatives-piefed-and-lemmy-are-mentioned-a-few-ti, like this comment:

That’s the problem, they do manipulate it. There was a thread a while back that showed how ml basically shows up as one of the random instances to join, like 95% of the time. So it’s not actually random.

We can say all we like how we wish that it were not a problem, but people on Reddit seem to disagree and not want to join regardless. Though I have noticed that either positive or negative opinions are very rarely delivered these days in r/RedditAlternatives. I wonder if people are simply tired of the subject and now just tune it out like noise. If so, then we missed a major opportunity to offer a true alternative to Reddit. Hopefully there will be more, and I am not suggesting to give up, only trying to highlight a major issue of concern so that we can move forward.

Chiefly imho, by recommending PieFed rather than Lemmy instances (and strongly preferably one that defederates from hexbear).

That is a superb idea. Plus PieFed.social defederates from hexbear, so there’s no chance of them accidentally wandering into let’s say [email protected] and get dunked on without understanding why. That community has a right to exist, but it most definitely should be properly labelled so that users are forewarned - unlike how Lemmy handles it where you can get into a post via All without ever once seeing its sidebar text.

It wouldn’t be so bad if another 5k people joined PieFed.social, but after that then yeah I would agree, especially in principle. People should spread out.

Would PieFed.zip possibly consider blocking all users from hexbear by default, thereby making interactions with them as opt-in rather than a nasty surprise waiting for someone to have to discover and then find out how to opt-out?

It is hard to achieve consensus, or for one instance to meet all the needs, but right now PieFed.zip does not even have so much as an instance label for them!! To be fair I see that such a label is lacking for Beehaw communities as well. I am sorry to say but the more I look at PieFed.zip, the less “Newbie-friendly” it seems to me, especially in comparison to PieFed.social. The latter has for Beehaw:

This post is hosted on beehaw.org which has higher standards of behaviour than most places. Be nice.

Which is very helpful for people who have never heard of Beehaw to know about, is it not?

I note that https://thriv.social/ has many Topics, Feeds, and has hexbear blocked, what about using it as a place to recommend? It is pretty new though, and it lacks the Beehaw label (an extremely minor point most likely as it could be easily added?).

The same for https://quokk.au/, and that admin has a lot of experience hosting Lemmy. Although I don’t see pinned posts for some reason, from multiple communities, so I wonder if there was a problem migrating over from Lemmy to PieFed.

Otherwise, PieFed.social might just be the best recommendation specifically for newbies, until a more newbie-friendly instance could be built up?

Here is one such very relevant post: https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/16hkxua/why_im_giving_up_on_lemmyfediverse/

A really interesting discussion in particular is below the reply saying:

The issues you brought up are very much on Reddit too. They are just more noticeable on Lemmy because there aren’t enough niche subs or fluff to drown them out.

Other replies included “I did end up shutting down my instance.”, which continued on with “But, for me, seeing people blindly bash the USA every chance they get, It’s a turn off.” - like, I get that the USA is unpopular (especially now), and also I am okay with the Threadiverse remaining small, but I did want to push back against this magical type of thinking that we can both have our cake and eat it to, in the form of both bashing people from it and also reaching out to invite people on Reddit (who are primarily from the USA) to join us here. Maybe Lemmy will have more success by marketing itself as more “European” (or at least “non-USA”, so maybe European + Global South)? Whatever goal we want to aim for, we should keep our eyes open as we aim directly at it, imho.

I do not think that all or even most Threadiverse instances should defederate from lemmy.ml, but on the other hand it would be extremely nice if just ONE instance would do so, which we could then share to people on Reddit as a nicer entry point for those more centrist-leaning users who are primarily people from the USA. Or else decide that that goal is (collectively) not what we all want. The latter being what ended up happening, whether intentionally or no.

Fwiw, Lemmy has gotten much better over the years in this respect, imho, with many more instances having banned lemmygrad.ml and hexbear.net specifically.

Like, look at those contortionist comment replies trying to state that, e.g.:

(if anyone’s out of the loop - lemmygrad isn’t “lemmy”, they are usually defederated by regular instances and their content isn’t visible in “lemmy” as it is colloquially understood)

This topic is a MAJOR, oft-repeated reason why people on Reddit refuse to come here and check us out.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/1jjl8g5/i_tried_lemmy_again_after_a_year_long_hiatus_and/ (the title there gets cut off but continues with “it’s still beyond terrible”), and here is that post’s concluding paragraph:

If you have a very narrow worldview, politics is your entire personality, and you enjoy dry, charged humor then I guess Lemmy is a good alternative for you, but if you’re anybody else it’s not worth it. Reddit is not good, everybody here agrees. However, despite it’s numerous flaws it’s still a product than Lemmy at it’s very best. It’s simply not a viable alternative imo. Even Instagram and Tiktok are better alternatives than Lemmy.

Note that I do not agree, just stating how these people said that they felt, if that is helpful for a diagnosis of the state of affairs and what we could potentially do to help mitigate those concerns. e.g. I successfully petitioned for discuss.online to defederate from hexbear.net, thinking that could help make Redditors feel more welcomed here. Although now I am placing my hope more in PieFed (which e.g. allows users to perform their own personalized defederations without needing admin approval to block all users from any specific instance), while giving up much hope for Lemmy to keep up with its wondrous pace of adding new features.

Is it not both though? I’ve noticed several users that joined here only recently - mere days or a few weeks or months - so are we not observing both users leaving and also new ones joining? Although this graph only shows the net traffic differences, so is insufficient to make claims beyond that. You could theoretically make a different one, overlaying the new subscriber numbers on top of this, that could disambiguate those two effects (people leaving vs. new ones joining)?

I saw this post on lemmy.ml just prior to the USA election, seemingly portraying the bOtH sIdEs myth that helped encourage people to not vote and thereby get Donald Trump elected:

Make of that what you will.

The difference, one would assume, is that on the whole, Reddit’s political biases influence more what is not shown (much like lemmy.ml banning people for any criticism of Russia, China, or North Korea, or the echo chamber in hexbear), whereas Lemmy’s tankie issue also manifests as people actively sea-lioning (e.g. Cowbee) and (especially from hexbear) overt trolling, which shows up more in people’s faces. Both are issues, neither are good.

That is exactly what happened. https://piefed.fediverse.observer/stats shows for instance that the numbers spiked from 352 MAUs (monthly active users) in May 2025 to >1k in June, then again to >1.6k in July, where it has mostly stabilized and we are currently at ~2.0k (half of that on piefed.social itself, half distributed across other instances, see list at https://piefed.fediverse.observer/list, click Active Users a couple times to sort that descending).

PieFed.social alone has 964 MAUs, now making it larger than such well-known instances as programming.dev, discuss.tchncs.de, lemmygrad.ml, sopuli.xyz, slrpnk.net (which announced a decision to migrate over to PieFed by the end of 2026).

Below PieFed.social, most instances have only a hundred or so users, but this too is a sign of healthy federation where many new instances keep spinning up - exactly like Lemmy where e.g. startrek.website has 152 MAUs, ttrpg.network has 127, ani.social has 172, mander.xyz has 196, and so on. Over a thousand users distributed across many instances is much healthier than all of them on a single one.

Note that most 3rd party apps haven’t caught up to the PieFed software’s latest API changes, so e.g. users of Voyager are mostly getting the same experience on a PieFed instance as they would have on a Lemmy one (iirc no polls, user or post flairs, categories of communities aka Topics and Feeds, etc.) - except even there, back-end changes can still be very impactful to the user experience (such as the ability of a mod to move a post from one community to another, or the ability of an end-user to block all users from a specific instance without needing admin approval to perform defederation).

String theory says that there are up to 11 so… so there!

Some additional uplifting community suggestions:

• [email protected]
• [email protected]
• [email protected]
• [email protected]
• [email protected] (not terribly active lately but not dead either)
• [email protected] (not well-known and specific to PieFed)

Feddit.online is another extremely well-established instance, with an absolutely enormous list of both Topic areas and Feeds available for use, yet it is located in the USA so may lack stability in the future.

Tangent: somehow even piefed.crust also has the “Newbie-friendly” label despite being explicitly a testing instance?

I see what you mean about piefed.zip though - federating with hexbear works against it, not as it being a good instance mind you but only it having received the “Newbie-friendly” label - yet it is the best compromise that can be found under the available circumstances.

Except PieFed.social itself, which is already to PieFed what Lemmy.World is to Lemmy in terms of centralization, which while not a concern now will be in the future. On the other hand, if the goal is to bring people from Reddit, then federation with hexbear might literally make recommending PieFed.social worthwhile despite that concentration effect, until some other instance is made that would work better?

Thanks for the explanation!:-)

Oh yeah, I concede that there are great discussions there, including some that are nowhere else (more or less, as in with much lower intensity). Certain communities are fine (in terms of their content), and direct links are just flat good scholarship to cite your resources.

That said, the wording of both of our messages here would also, in theory, apply to Reddit, X, Facebook, and even Truth Social, so it makes sense why we are being downvoted, bc the arguments going against moral purity testing are heavily unpopular here. And to some degree rightly so, since we need to separate ourselves as much as possible from such.

You might consider sending people links to those messages as accessible via programming.dev rather than lemmy.ml? Perhaps that approach would have more success at enticing people to join the Threadiverse who absolutely would not if you sent them a link to lemmy.ml and then they explored around that instance a bit and, not liking what they see there (understandably) nope right out of the whole affair.

People are not as simple as (most) programming - there is such variety and the less deep thinkers, who nonetheless have great skills in other areas that you lack (e.g. artists, or woodworking) may need you to do some of that more detailed thinking for them. If you want to - i.e. if you want the benefits that having done so would offer.

Your argument is disingenuous. You appeal to “math”, btw without demonstrating any proof of that math, but then you also used words like “destructive” and “crippled”, which are not mathematical in the slightest! Your argument devolves into just-trust-me-bro and i-am-very-smart. Surely you have some crypto that you would like to sell me as well?

Yes defederation makes a network less fully connected, but I suggest you reexamine the principles of the federated model, which does not require a fully connected network to begin with, and in fact one of its chief strengths lies in how it can handle such disconnection points. The only way it “cripples” anything is when an edgelord teenager no longer has a captive audience “forced” to receive their spew - yes, their feewings do get hurt, but the rest of the network gets stronger for having cut them out. Like a cancer that must be sacrificed for the health of the rest of the body to live.

CONSENT MUST MATTER, or we have no freedoms at all. They have the right to speak, and I demand the right to not have to listen to it, if I do not want to.

The fact that their admins are operating in bad faith and cannot control the toxicity of their members is not my own fault, but my response is under my own control. Even, as we literally see happening, if that means leaving the Threadiverse entirely.

Also, don’t miss the point where the Lemmy devs have left no other option besides full defederation, if you truly do not want to receive messages from people on that instance. In theory this could have been a different conversation if the “instance blocking” actually functioned as advertised, but instead it allows users from those instances to read, vote on, and reply to your content, and send you DMs, which even trigger notifications, the same as any unblocked user. That is no kind of “blocking” at all, so alrighty then, full defederation is the only option provided by the developers that will achieve the desired effect. (But this argument only affects the practicality of whatever solution is deployed, while I still think that consent should matter hence defederation should be allowed even on purely theoretical grounds. An instance admin should not be “forced” to receive messages that they do not want - CSAM being an absolutely perfect example of that.)

I mean… (to be, what’s the word, pedantic?:-P) hexbear.net still exists though? And it is their choice if they want to convert to PieFed rather than remain with Lemmy. I am 100% certain that lemmy.ml will never do so though:-D.

So fwiw I agree whole-heartedly with what you said, and that, imho, is what https://piefed.social/auth/instance_chooser provides? Any other new instance can make their own choice, and I like those GUI options much better. Like when I think of “lemmy.ml”, the “Technology” aspect and the phrase “A community of privacy and FOSS enthusiasts, run by Lemmy’s developers” is nowhere close to the top few thoughts that spring into my mind. And hexbears aren’t even leftist, only pretending to be such. But the “choose your own adventure” category, in opposition to “Newbie-friendly”, I feel like MUCH better describes both lemmy.ml and hexbear, wouldn’t you agree?

Hard agree there - growth at any costs should not be our motto, just improvement in terms of features for our own sakes, and if people enjoy that and want to join us, then that’s wonderful as well.

Though at one point we had 55k active users, and now we “only” have ~35k, so it seems like it has gone down over the years. Though to be fair, then it cycled back upwards, then downwards, then upwards again, then downwards - and yet always decreasing from that peak of 55k to where we are now, an overall negative trend. Even just six months ago we had 41k, a loss of ~15% now compared ot then (correspondingly, PieFed only has ~2k users total across all instances, so this loss of 6k for Lemmy was nowhere near balanced by a corresponding increase in PieFed as would be explained by a migration effect).

But even if you are fully right, and this all reflects relative stagnation, that’s still not a good thing imho, given the waves of Reddit migrants that we’ve seen coming here during the same time-period. It means that in roughly equal numbers to new people joining we are also losing a LOT of people, to parts unknown (perhaps they went back to Reddit, as many claim to have done in r/RedditAlternatives, or perhaps they moved instead to BlueSky?).

But then how do you mod communities, specifically Lemmy ones, when those reports do not federate (though PieFed ones reportedly do)?

Oooh, good to know. So is this your preferred instance to recommend to people then, as opposed to e.g. the PieFed instance picker?

At some point we may need to try to spread people around more, but it has a tenth the MAUs as piefed.social so we definitely are not there yet! :-P

Also it is highly exciting to me to see slrpnk.net’s plans to migrate from Lemmy to PieFed - that is like the #14 largest Lemmy instance (if hexbear and lemmynsfw are not showing up in the list at https://lemmy.fediverse.observer/list).

Edit: oh, but piefed.zip federates with hexbear.net - isn’t that going to be problematic, as noob users often run for the hills upon being exposed to such? I am perfectly fine with hexbear being opt-in, but on piefed.zip it looks like it is rather opt-out? (even though it truly has an option to allow opt-out of, given PieFed’s ability to block all users from an instance, unlike Lemmy)