content warning, I’m going to be glib and talk about misogyny and transphobia in a joking manner - I don’t mean to harm anyone, and I don’t want to upset anyone.


OK hear me out: trans-exclusionary radical feminists, at least the actual radfems who are often middle-aged and still stuck in second-wave feminism, should love gender-affirming care … doesn’t it do exactly what they would love to do to men? Like, a lot of these women are cultural feminists, they essentialise men and women and view women as superior and men as inherently violent, oppressive, and bad. At least that’s been my experience.

So, for example, if a man wants to suppress testosterone and take estrogen, shouldn’t TERFs’ fear about violence from men and the (admittedly simplistic) narrative that testosterone is responsible for that violence and aggression motivate them to embrace enabling as many men as possible to suppress their testosterone and chemically castrate themselves with estrogen?

Even if they don’t believe that makes the man a woman, shouldn’t they believe it’s an improvement?

It just sounds like a revenge fever-dream concocted by second-wave lesbian separatist: a woman goes about secretly injecting abusive men with estrogen to calm them down … it just sounds like a revenge fantasy they would be into.

The plot of The Gate to Women’s Country literally centers around this fantasy of castrating men to make “good” men.

And if that’s not compelling, I know they love the stories about chopping off dicks - come on, if they really believe trans women are a bunch of men, shouldn’t they support access to gender-affirming care like vaginoplasties that do exactly that?

TERFs should support gender-affirming care even if they don’t believe trans women are women. If men are the enemy they should be the biggest fans of chemically castrating and cutting the dicks off men.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

  • werty@sh.itjust.works
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    1
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    2 days ago

    It does seem to me that you are saying there is some gender essentialism going on, produced by a complex set of genes/hormones/environment (like everything else) and I don’t conform to the woman stereotype therefore I am not a woman, not really, because i dont have the feminine self expression part of the identity. What if i reject gender as an overarching identity, can i be a women despite enjoying maths and machines? Why is makeup a prerequisite for female? Tomboy does not in any way mean male, i am entirely comfortable with my body. I am not anti trans btw, i fully support all trans rights, especially healthcare, i just have confusion. I think most people see gender as very important to identity and i dont understand that.

    • LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zoneM
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      ·
      2 days ago

      What womanhood means to you is up to you. I understand this is something you’ve been told your entire life that you are inherently, and you have to find your own way to exist within the conventions of womanhood, but you don’t. As women, we can be masculine and/or feminine, we can be apathetic about our gender, we can choose to take part in gendered presentations like makeup or wearing clothing associated with femininity, we can work in any field we want and we can be whatever we want to be. Those things are all true even considering Trans women. Masculine Trans women exist. Gender liberation is discarding the concept of assigned gender roles entirely and allowing gender self-determination. It’s letting you decide what gender means to you.

      I’m just going to repost this here since I already said it elsewhere and you didn’t seem to respond to it.

    • dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOP
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      ·
      edit-2
      2 days ago

      Gender essentialism doesn’t make sense, in the end the idea behind essentialism is that “male” and “female” are two categories that are clearly differentiated by a set of essential, inherent characteristics. Basically a woman is someone who meets a set of criteria, and those criteria are never particularly work to actually include all women and exclude all non-women.

      Most TERFs are biological essentialists and many will say a woman is someone who produces the large gamete (i.e. eggs, as opposed to sperm). It’s not clear to me that essentialists like this have any sufficient response to the fact that there are very real (even cisgendered) women who are sterile and don’t produce eggs - are they not women because they lack that defining characteristic?

      Other essentialist definitions focus on other biological components, like having XX chromosomes, or having a uterus, or the capacity to bear children (again problems for how to make sure sterile women are correctly categorized as women) … None of these definitions work, there are exceptions to all of them because human biology is very complicated and there is a lot of natural variation. (If you’re curious about the science, this Nature article is fairly accessible.)

      Another problem with this kind of essentialist thinking is that we clearly operate in a social context where we do identify people as “women” and “men” without knowing their chromosomes, genitals, and so on. (I notice you didn’t answer my question about how you know you have XX chromosomes … I know my chromosomes because I have taken a karyotype test, but it still didn’t tell me anything about my gender.)

      Gender dysphoria might have biological causes and might not be curable through therapy or brainwashing, but that doesn’t exactly give us an essentialist account of gender. The biology is also not the only factor, just like gender itself is complex and multi-faceted, the social context plays a role in shaping dysphoria and the distress experienced by trans people. A trans man might feel uncomfortable wearing a dress - whatever biological causes there were for the gender dysphoria did not include specific discomfort with dresses, the dresses are an arbitrary aspect of the way gender manifests in our society. In a society where people would not be put in strict gender roles the shape of dysphoria might look different for trans people than it would in a society where gender is put upon people and enforced.

      I don’t conform to the woman stereotype therefore I am not a woman

      I don’t think that is accurate, as you point out a tomboy is still a woman - not conforming to stereotypes doesn’t invalidate your gender. You seem to understand this already, so I’m not sure why you make this statement.

      I think most people see gender as very important to identity and i dont understand that.

      Some people are “agender” and don’t have any notable or strong gender feelings. It’s OK not to understand from a first person perspective what it’s like for people different than yourself. If you’re really hoping to empathize and understand better, one way to help with perspective taking is to read fiction works that take those perspectives - Stone Butch Blues for example might help you understand a trans perspective better.

      I might also point out that you likely don’t understand what it’s like for cis men who are very masculine and who enjoy having hairy bodies, broad shoulders, and a penis and so on - but you don’t seem confused by the existence of cis men or their preferences … Maybe your confusion around trans people is similar to confusion you would have with cis men, from your account I could assume it’s general like that.

      On a more personal note, it’s interesting the way you talk about gender, it reminds me of what I was like pre-transition. I somewhat hated gender and wished people would just shut up about it, and I wished they would stop gendering me (either way). I didn’t particularly care about my body and I would not have said I experienced anything like “gender dysphoria”. That’s not to say you’re trans or that these perspectives indicate a trans experience, but it is a bit surreal for me to be on the other side of transition and to see how radically different my interpretation of my experiences pre-transition are now. Where before I might have taken gender abolitionist positions and felt some affinity for agender experiences, now I am much more clear about how unconscious gendered preferences impact my life, and while before I coped with those through repression, I just relate to them differently now.

      Anyway - feel free to DM me anytime with questions, this is admittedly not the right place to explore these kinds of questions.

      • werty@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        2 days ago

        Thank you, that was a great, educational comment and i found much to relate to. Im not going to respond right now because a knee jerk reaction would not be productive but i want you to know that i have read and i am ruminating on what you have said. It was not in vain! You have my ear and i will come back to this. I genuinely thank you for your effort and time and i sound like a complete fucking wanker but i actually mean well just shoot me! Sorry

        • dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOP
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          2 days ago

          All that matters is that you are engaging in good faith and have a good heart - thank you for listening and reading my comments, it means a lot to me ❤️

          I’ll be here whenever you want to chat, I know it’s a lot to think about and to process (I spent months working through a lot of this myself, I know what it was like to be on the other side).