I’m frustrated. I’m a long time fan of Motorola. Their phones have been pretty simple and easy to remove junk apps. Recently I got an update that forced perplexity on my phone.
Brax phone, braxtech.net.
They are focused on privacy and no bloat. I don’t have one but will be getting one when my phone needs replacing.
rooted
Root is always a security risk, you really should not. (GrapheneOS comment (on Reddit) about rooting.)
out the box
None, probably. Refer to Bootloader Unlock Wall of Shame instead to check which companies do not restrict bootloader unlocking. See here for a list of devices where the bootloader can be locked with custom AVB Keys.
security risk
All those rooted concerns are true for desktop Linux / MacOS, and they still ship with sudo. If I can’t rm -rf the root partition then its not really my device.
The bootloader wall of shame is nice.
Android does not have the same security model as desktop Linux. I made a comment about this above (which you probably can’t see due to .world being defederated with who I replied to), but if you don’t want to go to my comment history, it’s summed up as three or so main issues.
Rooting breaks OTA updates since it modifies your partition hash, meaning rooted users tend to leave security holes open way too long. Android does not have a package manager for you to be able to update these issues individually.
Android does not expect users to have root access, so they do not even consider it in the design. Android sandboxes apps, and apps can only generally have permissions that you grant, with no direct access to the kernel. However, rooting adds an entirely new attack surface for which there are no protections whatsoever. Desktop Linux, on the other hand, does expect users to need root level access from time to time. That’s what sudo is for, but you should not confuse this with switching your user entirely to root and doing everything as root. There’s a reason that’s not recommended on Linux: it’s dangerous. The same thing applies to Android. On top of that, Linux has other tools and protections designed to make running as sudoer safer, and Android has none.
Finally, it breaks your ability to use proper verified boot. If your system partions silently get malware installed, there’s generally no way for a user with a rooted phone to notice. Verified boot protects against this, but because rooting (along with whatever else you’re running as root) changes your partition hashes, it will either stop booting or revert your changes.
If mobile Linux ever takes off, it will likely be very similar to desktop Linux and be designed with root in mind.
Touching the system partition isn’t the only thing one would do with root. And if the ROM ships su in the ROM, there’s no problem of being out of sync with upstream or even not passing boot verification.
It does open up an attack surface against the app that provides the UI to gate root access. But that has to be considered against the “availability” arm of the security triad.
Regarding the system partion and verified boot, it’s the fact that it isn’t the only thing one would do with root that breaks verified boot. You totally could package su in the ROM and ship it, but if a user installs something else to the system with it, it is very likely that the verified boot hash would change, unless I’m missing something.
Good guess about the federating problem. Thats a good reminder for me to change instances (was on lemm.ee before it died, .world was my backup).
OTA, while a fair point, again sounds to me like a technical problem, not a fundamental design problem. E.g. disable the partion hash check so OTA can be installed in a timely way.
Linux has other tools and protections.
- If there are protections they’re at the system level (not app space). Which means the ROM provider could/should add those same protections as Linux instead of saying “you dont need root, stop asking”
- AFAIK there are, unfortunately, basically no protections on Linux. Sudo can be trivially shimmed (add malicious exe to PATH) without even having sudo permissions, then the next time user inputs sudo an attacker would have their password. Its bad that its so easy, but its a double standard to say Linux is fine but an (up to date) Android with root is vulnerable.
OTA, as of right now, needs to hash the device to prevent system corruption. I don’t think it’s a very simple problem to solve, or surely there would be a ROM out there that does fix it with root. A better fix would be a package manager, but that’s not going to happen with AOSP.
Regarding #1, it’s fundamental to AOSP, and not any particular ROM. Similar to the OTA issue above. It’s not just graphene (which, technically, you can root fyi, but I really would not do so, as again it defeats the purpose of running a verified boot secured phone).
#2 is debatable, because it’s also highly dependent on the distro and configuration. As an example, immutable distros (which are actually closer to Android than non-immutable distros) make it so sudo/root isn’t needed very often, if at all. Fedora CoreOS, for example, can run package updates on a schedule without user intervention, use rootless containers, and do verified boot. It can be deployed from a single file and validate itself after the fact, meaning a user would never be prompted for a password at any point. Obviously that’s not a 1:1 because it isn’t made for PC usage, but other distros based on Fedora Silverblue and the like can be more secure than standard Linux for similar reasons. Everything is generally sandboxed (flatpaks and containers) and root is rarely, if ever, required.
That being said, if you’re not concerned, there isn’t anything stopping you aside from your phone’s manufacturer, which I’m sure you’re aware of. I’m fine just knowing that I could do it, and much prefer the security benefits of verified boot and proper sandboxing above all else. I don’t trust Google to properly patch zero days related to rooted phones, let alone patch the ones that affected non rooted devices.
What bothers me a bit more is, the OS could address a lot of what Graphene is talking about: there should be a builtin OS level “no overlays, no accessibility, allowed when superuser reqested, must use builtin OS controlled keyboard to input password”. The OS should design the accessibility permission in such a way that it can’t override a superuser request UI.
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Re: all the other root concerns. I’m on Graphene sans root and it’s fine because my OS isn’t actively cockblocking anything. I can even spoof GPS and such. Is there something you know you need root for v the normal setup on non-Googled Android forks?
If I can’t rm -rf my root directory, then I’m not happy
Do you need root? It’s a big security risk, for multiple reasons.
You can always just get a used pixel (no further money to Google), and install a custom ROM that allows your bootloader to relock after installation. I personally prefer Graphene for this, but I believe Lineage also allows you to do so. They both have no bloat from the start, and GOS has sandboxed Google Play and Lineage has the ability to use microG iirc.
GOS can be installed via chromium based browsers, even from another phone. Security wise, there’s nothing more secure at the moment.
Why are pixels so popular for this?
Pixels are (currently) the only phones that allow for all of the following at once:
- Proper verified boot
- Bootloader unlocking (this is most important for any custom ROM installation, regardless of ROM)
- Hardware memory tagging
- Full hardware isolation
- Hardware key attestation
- Ability to disable USB data (and also USB entirely) at the hardware level
- Everything else on this list
In short, it’s simply because Pixel currently has the most hardware level security features of any Android phone (on top of bootloader unlocking), for now. The Graphene team is allegedly in talks with an OEM to produce a phone specifically designed for it, which may be just as or even more secure. Time will tell.
I feel the need to mention that I’m not trying to shill for Graphene and especially not Google. Depending on your threat model and goal, Lineage or similar might be just fine for you. I just don’t think there’s anything more secure than GOS at the moment, and if that is important to you, along with minimizing bloat, it’s a great choice. I do highly recommend avoiding root and instead just get something that you can unlock the bootloader for, and then install a degoogled ROM. Just make sure you don’t accidentally buy a permanently locked phone, make sure it says unlocked somewhere in the listing.
Desktop operating systems provide root access without forcing you to bypass manufacturer restrictions. Why should phones be any different?
Android is not designed the same way as a desktop operating system. For example, Android is designed to sandbox all applications and never require kernel level access. This means that if one app is malicious, as long as you haven’t granted it extra permissions, it’s much more difficult for it to affect any other apps. If you root, you’re breaking that level of defense. Android simply wasn’t designed for users to need or regularly use root, whereas Linux was built from the ground up with that expectation.
Root also makes applying security patches a challenge. Android doesn’t have a standard package manager like desktop Linux. This means that users with rooted phones are less inclined to go through the pain of updating. I haven’t rooted in a long while, but I can confirm that when I did root, I tended to avoid it for far too long. Anyway, the way Android’s incremental OTA updates work is by comparing partition hashes. When rooted, this hash gets changed and you can no longer install OTA updates.
Further, root on Android can (and as far as I recall, does) affect verified boot, meaning if you want verified boot, every time you reboot you lose root. Android verified boot detects changes to system partition and either doesn’t boot or reverts the changes. If you turn off verified boot, you cannot know if your system has been modified in a malicious way.
Put a slightly different way, Android’s security model is entirely different than the security model of something like Linux. Linux expects you to need sudo/root for certain tasks, and other protections are built around that. Android does not expect you to ever need root, so it’s not a consideration in its security design.
By rooting, you’re not just bypassing manufacturer restrictions, you’re bypassing Android’s security design entirely. It’s much more secure to just install a debloated, degoogled OS that can do verified boot.
Now, if mobile Linux ever takes off, then I’m sure it would be more like a desktop distro and less like Android.
That’s what OnePlus, Nothing, and FairPhone are supposed to be about.
For privacy, I like my iPhone, but I can’t really recommend them anymore. Even with “Apple Intelligence” the keyboard is hilariously terrible. It gets a few things right and I’m wondering more and more if the ecosystem is worth it. But throwing money at Google somehow seems worse.
Sadly, we’ve lost Calyx till Febuary. Fairphone 5 with Calyx is the ultimate private phone. You can also get any Google device and flash Graphene.
Wdym until February?
Why is Fairphone no bueno?
I don’t have one, but I think they are overpriced for the specs you get.
Their goal is sustainability, but the outdated specs means I’d probably upgrade more frequently than I would with an iPhone where I can upgrade less often.
That’s what OnePlus, Nothing, and FairPhone are supposed to be about.
It seems that you’re implying they’re not? Could you expand?
OnePlus originally had really nice enthusiast features and support for the CyanogenMod ROM. Now it’s just another manufacturer of corporate-safe glass-and-metal slabs while the soul of CyanogenMod lives on in LineageOS.
Carl Pei left OnePlus and put together Nothing. Nothing is a bit closer to what OnePlus was supposed to be, but they still leave much to be desired. They went all the way to implement a detachable back on the CMF phone, but the battery is still sealed inside. Absolutely no advantage compared to manufacturers like Google in terms of the third-party ROM experience.
FairPhone is the best of the bunch, but their priorities don’t necessarily match those of the community (i.e. security concerns, loss of audio jack and USB 3.0 on the FP6)
Recently I got an update that forced perplexity on my phone.
Fuck me, that’s infuriating.
What country are you in? Murena sells Fairphones in the US.
Other than that, I know this isn’t what you asked for but GrapheneOS can be installed from the browser on your computer…
USA
There ya go, Murena is probably your best bet.
Looks like they have a few devices, actually
Have a CMF1 from Murena for few months now, pretty happy with it. 350EUR with unlocked bootloader and rooted, used it as daily driver since day one. Transition from iOS was surprisingly painless.
Less expensive than I expected, but no headphone jack, no SD slot, comes with /e/OS.
In the end any mobile phone is inherently privacy invasive because of tracking by the cellular carrier, and the unending security bugs in the software. It’s hard to do much about this.
no headphone jack, no SD slot, comes with /e/OS.
- I personally didn’t need jack but I understand it might be problematic for some. If you create music for example you might not want the latency but for that I have a dedicated PBG-1 (OSHW grove box) which does have jack. FWIW there are USB-jack adapters.
- it has an SD slot, I have a .5To inside
- comes with /e/OS was the point for me. I wanted a deGoogle Android without any tinkering. If you don’t want that though you can buy straight from CMF but I don’t know with what ROM they will ship.
In the end any mobile phone is inherently privacy invasive because of tracking by the cellular carrier, and the unending security bugs in the software. It’s hard to do much about this.
- if you don’t trust cellular carriers you can setup your own network, e.g. https://www.crowdsupply.com/ukama/ukama but… yeah that’s a bit demanding and obviously nobody else will connect to it. You can use eSIM but still have to trust the resulting carrier. You can rely on WiFi only but same, trust the ISP or encrypt everything you can, have your own VPN elsewhere and hope you can go through deep pack inspection
- on bugs in software… but I like https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/precursor is exploring the idea, pragmatically, of verifying the whole stack, hardware included, but it doesn’t go to mobile packed. One could consider this with simpler modem equivalent, e.g. LoraWAN, but with the obvious bandwidth limitation. None of that removes bugs but if the entire stack is verifiable at least it’s about genuine bug, not backdoors.
Very unorthadox suggestion, but those Vollaphones can come with Ubuntu Touch pre-installed. Best UI experience I had with a phone was an Ubuntu Touch. Pinephones also come with a Linux phone distro.
None currently ,closest is pixel with for now easy unlockable bootloader
Consider if you truly need root on your device because its more of a risk then a benefit in most cases these days. Most features that used to require root no longer do or have more secure alternatives
Another consideration is that while you can buy a phone with grapheneos preinstalled, it’s much better if you take the time to do the web install yourself because anyone selling preinstalled phones could potentially be a honeypot.
Pixels don’t include bloat other than google, installing grapheneos is a simple and easy process you can do from your browser, unfortunately that’s about the only truely secure option available currently any other devices (ie fairphone) will be a trade off of less/slower security updates and/or lack of ability to relock the bootloader.
Fairphone
I bought a refurbished pixel with e/os already installed. Only apps pre installed were murena’s small suite. Notes, app lounge, etc. minimal “bloat”
