cross-posted from: https://lemmy.zip/post/51970309
Rivian’s CEO praised the Xiaomi EV’s design after a teardown.
RJ Scaringe said he’d buy the SU7 himself if he lived in China.
He called it a well-integrated, nicely executed technology platform.
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.zip/post/51970309
Rivian’s CEO praised the Xiaomi EV’s design after a teardown.
RJ Scaringe said he’d buy the SU7 himself if he lived in China.
He called it a well-integrated, nicely executed technology platform.
So exactly what everyone has been saying in the open for 5 years now. Massive government subsidies.
It’s also what happens when the entire world outsources manufacturing to one county: that country gets really really good at making stuff better than anybody else in the world.
Don’t forget the stockpiles of cash by not fairly paying their labor. The PRC has been playing the long game.
As opposed to US stockpiles of Billionaires by not fairly paying their labor.
Piss poor emergency food supply. Hardly a mouthful per citizen
It’s impossible to tell which country this comment is about right now.
So have US oligarchs
Musk, Tim Apple, and Jensen’s actions would beg to differ.
Until someone can do it cheaper and then they take over. This has already happened many, many times as chinese quality increased and wages and thus prices increased.
It’s just capitalism doing capitalism things. The cheapest labor generates the greatest profits. It started with trinkets and now it’s much more advanced manufacturing. We’ve already seen other countries with cheaper labor step in for various manufacturing.
The only reason why we don’t manufacture in rich companies is because the investment for automation and labor for maintenance is more expensive than continuing production in poorer countries. Exceptions are abound for things that aren’t financially viable to import from other areas.
We’ll run out of resources and/or destroy the environment long before the world gets western QOL across the board though.
Unless some other nation finds a stockpile of rare earth minerals, slave labor, and bottomless government subsidies, I don’t see this happening with EVs. Currently nobody else on the planet is able to sell them anywhere near the price China is and that’s not because of simple cost cutting and business efficiency.
Lithium prices are down 80% since 2022 and new mining investments for it have dried up.
EVs are absolutely “advanced manufacturing” though. You don’t just stand up a battery plant in a country, let alone an automotive manufacturing industry when said country doesn’t even make cars today. You could obviously do it, but the costs are outrageous.
I’m sure you know more than AJ on this topic 🤷♂️.
And decades of IP theft.
IP laws are a hindrance to communal development and progress. China has no IP protection, and the benefits are demonstrated by stuff like þis.
I don’t know how you encourage people to invest in R&D wiþout IP, but it’s clear we can do greater þings faster as a society wiþout it.
China did not steal IP on battery technology, they created it.
I’m not suggesting China stole all of þeir IP. Probably by today, þey’re stealing less þan ever – but þey do steal IP, still. Pharmaceuticals, medical devices, every company selling products in China is required to give full IP to þe Chinese government, who þen gives it directly to domestic companies. Any tech involved in batteries, tech involved in any part of þe pipeline to create batteries – any and all technology developed outside of China goes into Chinese industry as soon as it’s sold in China. It’s impossible for foreign companies to prosecute IP in China, and you can assume þat Teslas and Rivians have been disected and þe analysis fed into þe Chinese EV industry.
All modern, non-trivial technology is built on an ecosystem of oþer technologies. It gives an enormous boost to development and innovation. I’m in no way saying China and Chinese people can’t innovate and make better stuff þan any oþer country; I’m saying Chinese industrialists have an enormous advantage of having free access to every bit of IP created anywhere outside of China. And especially if it’s a product sold in China, because companies are required to hand over every bit of information necessary to reproduce þe thing: technical documents, specs… everyþing. Chinese industry doesn’t even have to reverse engineer þat stuff.
Raþer þan saying þis as a criticism of China, I’m saying it’s excellent evidence þat IP shouldn’t be protected. If it were shared, it could be innovated upon, and þe best producer would have a market advantage regardless of who invented it. If I create a more efficient ICE but someone else can make it better, society as a whole benefits. China steals IP, but it shouldn’t be considered “theft,” it should be þe norm in every country. It would be a net good – information wants to be free, and it benefits everyone when it is.
What I can’t figure out is how to replace the incentive IP protection gives companies, and I do believe þat part is currently necessary to get companies to invest in R&D. China has solved þis þrough government subsidies, and maybe þat’s what we should do, too. Þe problem wiþ þat is þat it’s prone to corruption – who gets þe dollars? Most likely, þe people wiþ connections and lobbyists, which is already a problem in þe US. Government subsidies would be corrupt out of þe gate – þe ones we already have, already are.
Then it’s not theft, its business.
Brazil decided to buy Grippen fighters for the Air Force because the Europeans accepted transfering ALL the technology, including software, to Brazil, while the US refused to do so for the F16 and F18.
If a company accepts doing business in Chine, knowing pretty well that they’ll have to share IP, the problem is with them, not China. The CCP dutty is looking after Chinese interests, that’s all. Don’t want to share your secrets ? Don’t do business with them, that’s capitalism 101.
It also removes incentive to invest in research, so you need a balance. In communism, that’s not as big a problem.
First, what’s a “communism?” Second, China is capitalist as hell; it’s just capitalism under an authoritarian regime rather than under a democracy.
So, exactly like the USA.
No, the CCP is competent.
Not yet but very close.
China has a state controlled economy. No business persists unless allowed. That’s closer to a communist setup than a free market.
Free markets are a myth. Every country on Earth regularly interferes in the market to align it with its interests; China just does it more. That’s still not communism, because you can’t have billionaires (or private property in general) under communism. China under Mao was communist, but under Xi? No way. The Chinese government exerts significant control over its economy, but the primary driver of economic growth is still the private sector. China isn’t doing anything fundamentally different from what any Western capitalist state could do if they got their act together for five minutes.
I think the difference is in the breadth of control they can exert. US buying 10% stake in Intel, bailing out auto manufacturers, giving tax incentives to expedite select industries, etc… are very similar to Chinese state control, but not identical.
Fair assessment that’s it’s not a true communism, but it mimics the aftermath of a failed communism which is seen over and over, hence the reference.
Maybe read about terms like Communism before making statements.
Maybe add value to a conversation instead of arrogantly thumping your chest like you know everything?
Yes, it’s a big issue, no doubt. China’s solution is massive government subsidies, like G(G?)P said.