This sounds like utopianism, and i don’t know if it’s whether you didn’t do a thorough job of explaining anarchism or that this is actually what anarchism is.
That’s not what anarchism is. It’s just what I currently think of when discussing anarchism. Anarchism is nothing more than opposition to authority. And while there are common beliefs there is no single understanding of what exactly that means or looks like.
The reason it seems utopian is because our current society rewards selfishness and greed, so it feels like a society that doesn’t seem to regulate them is missing something. Anarchism regulates them by using social pressure.
Anarchism regulates them by using social pressure.
That’s what all post-capitalist forms of socioeconomic organization aim to do anyways, so it is a necessary step
I was referring to this part of your comment:
As more and more anarchist systems start popping up (although this is probably never going to happen) this would transform to a more independent/self-sustaining system. But what that system looks like doesn’t really matter, because whatever it is will be determined by the ones who make it.
I don’t want to speak on whether anarchism as a concept is possible or not—it can be depending on material realities—I’m more speaking to your concept of “that system will be established if and when more anarchies pop up (which you’re skeptical of yourself)”. So my question is this:
What’s to be done in the interim? You’ve acknowledged that multiple anarchic communes are highly unlikely to spring up anytime soon, so how do you get there?
Getting people involved. Creating spaces where anarchic relations are the norm, and letting these spaces naturally grow, split and transform. What I’m talking about isn’t a single political system that people follow but rather a different way to approach everyday interactions with each other. It’s not “we need to take over factories and farms and start establishing collective production and ownership”. It’s “we need to create anarchic connections with the people who work in the farms and factories and build relationships to exchange resources among ourselves without money”. I don’t advocate for the destruction of the state because the path I want to take to anarchism ignores the state entirely. (or at least until they start shooting at me).
Technically utopianism refers to the practice of imagining a better society and thinking you can implement it through fiat, ie by convincing everyone to agree with you. It’s like theorycrafting a society and thinking that you just need to convince everyone it’s the way.
Examples include the Owenites and Saint-Simone, both of which tried their own little isolated societies that they tried to get others to copy, but they fizzled and died. Marxism advanced upon this by looking at socialism not as something to create in a vacuum, but as the logical next step in class struggle, ie feudalism gave way to capitalism which gives way to socialism which gives way to communism due to the unfolding of dialectical processes and relationships (in example, the centralization of production into monopoly in capitalism kills competition, increases the proletariat with ratio to capitalists, and paves the way for central planning and collectivization of production and distribution).
Utopianism is unrealistic, but it isn’t defined by that.
That’s a strict Engelsian application of the term. Maybe i should’ve used idealistic. Particularly in reference to this portion of their comment:
Anarchism requires belief in people. That whatever system they come up with will work and compliment others who will be able to build their own systems: Economic, social or political.
Also i think it’s best if Marxists abandon this framing:
feudalism gave way to capitalism which gives way to socialism which gives way to communism due to the unfolding of dialectical processes and relationships
It sounds teleological and gave rise to the many erroneous anarchist critiques we’re now dealing with. You can say that the internal contradictions that capitalism present create the possibility for socialism, but that by no means guarantees it
I’d agree that idealistic (vs “idealism”) would be more accurate.
As for the bit on historical progression, it was a simplification. Russia was semi-feudal when it became socialist, China and Vietnam were colonized agrarian countries, Cuba was essentially a plantation, etc. Progression in modes of production isn’t so much a strict order but instead a natural progression, and moreover the point is that the driving factor behind their development has been class struggle and evolution in technology changing how we live, produce, and distribute.
This sounds like utopianism, and i don’t know if it’s whether you didn’t do a thorough job of explaining anarchism or that this is actually what anarchism is.
That’s not what anarchism is. It’s just what I currently think of when discussing anarchism. Anarchism is nothing more than opposition to authority. And while there are common beliefs there is no single understanding of what exactly that means or looks like.
The reason it seems utopian is because our current society rewards selfishness and greed, so it feels like a society that doesn’t seem to regulate them is missing something. Anarchism regulates them by using social pressure.
That’s what all post-capitalist forms of socioeconomic organization aim to do anyways, so it is a necessary step
I was referring to this part of your comment:
I don’t want to speak on whether anarchism as a concept is possible or not—it can be depending on material realities—I’m more speaking to your concept of “that system will be established if and when more anarchies pop up (which you’re skeptical of yourself)”. So my question is this:
What’s to be done in the interim? You’ve acknowledged that multiple anarchic communes are highly unlikely to spring up anytime soon, so how do you get there?
What exactly are you advocating for really?
Getting people involved. Creating spaces where anarchic relations are the norm, and letting these spaces naturally grow, split and transform. What I’m talking about isn’t a single political system that people follow but rather a different way to approach everyday interactions with each other. It’s not “we need to take over factories and farms and start establishing collective production and ownership”. It’s “we need to create anarchic connections with the people who work in the farms and factories and build relationships to exchange resources among ourselves without money”. I don’t advocate for the destruction of the state because the path I want to take to anarchism ignores the state entirely. (or at least until they start shooting at me).
anarchism, marxism, feminism, egalitarianism, anti-racism. these are all deeply interrelated utopianist movements.
Utopian here meaning unrealistic, not what’s ideal
Technically utopianism refers to the practice of imagining a better society and thinking you can implement it through fiat, ie by convincing everyone to agree with you. It’s like theorycrafting a society and thinking that you just need to convince everyone it’s the way.
Examples include the Owenites and Saint-Simone, both of which tried their own little isolated societies that they tried to get others to copy, but they fizzled and died. Marxism advanced upon this by looking at socialism not as something to create in a vacuum, but as the logical next step in class struggle, ie feudalism gave way to capitalism which gives way to socialism which gives way to communism due to the unfolding of dialectical processes and relationships (in example, the centralization of production into monopoly in capitalism kills competition, increases the proletariat with ratio to capitalists, and paves the way for central planning and collectivization of production and distribution).
Utopianism is unrealistic, but it isn’t defined by that.
That’s a strict Engelsian application of the term. Maybe i should’ve used idealistic. Particularly in reference to this portion of their comment:
Also i think it’s best if Marxists abandon this framing:
It sounds teleological and gave rise to the many erroneous anarchist critiques we’re now dealing with. You can say that the internal contradictions that capitalism present create the possibility for socialism, but that by no means guarantees it
I’d agree that idealistic (vs “idealism”) would be more accurate.
As for the bit on historical progression, it was a simplification. Russia was semi-feudal when it became socialist, China and Vietnam were colonized agrarian countries, Cuba was essentially a plantation, etc. Progression in modes of production isn’t so much a strict order but instead a natural progression, and moreover the point is that the driving factor behind their development has been class struggle and evolution in technology changing how we live, produce, and distribute.
ah. alright. okay. got it. that’s on me. what i was describing would be more eutopian then
No worries👍