We can’t really agree to disagree on wishful thinking vs centuries of materialist analysis that has been historically proven time and time again, sorry.
Yeah if got nuked into the stone age or otherwise completely obliterated all at once, but if it fell to consistent communists or socialists, the accumulated capital would be expropriated and given back to the people, right?
Accumulated value being destroyed doesn’t just mean physically existing property (e.g. factories and houses) but also fictitious capital such as bonds and stocks which would result in instant wipe out of capital on paper, collapse of existing factory supply chains meaning they can no longer produce nor sell profitably which devalues them significantly and I can go on and on. This would allow capital abroad to fill in these market spaces with their own produce and enjoy increased profits since competition just got taken out.
Also, it’s not up to some “communists and socialists” to pick up the slack - for a revolution to happen, the proletariat as a class has to rise up and fight for their own emancipation. The job of communists is to shift the consciousness from trade union (e.g. merely making conditions better) to communist consciousness (e.g. abolishment of the current state of things) and making sure the revolution succeeds via leadership. Without that, literally nothing can be achieved apart from mere spectacle, as shown by urban guerillas, years of lead and so on, and any collapse would just result in different reactionaries taking power as history shows.
If there’s actual class consciousness in a country, collapse isn’t necessary at all. If there isn’t, collapse wouldn’t bring anything other than suffering and shift back towards status quo.
We can’t really agree to disagree on wishful thinking vs centuries of materialist analysis that has been historically proven time and time again, sorry.
No we actually can agree to disagree, because maybe I have reached my conclusions through a materialist but distinct analysis. Reasonable minds can differ on most things. Give it a shot!
bonds and stocks which would result in instant wipe out of capital on paper
Good. It wasn’t real anyways, so we shouldn’t be playing along like it is.
collapse of existing factory supply chains
Does collapse of necessarily mean collapse of the supply chains? I’m skeptical that workers will stop working in absence of the boot; if anything, workers will be more productive.
As long as “leadership” doesn’t mean a vanguard, then I really don’t have any problems with the second paragraph, and frankly it is a more precise version of what I want to see.
If there’s actual class consciousness in a country, collapse isn’t necessary at all.
The problem is that the military and cops are not proletarians and never will align with our interests. So even if the proletariat fully achieved class consciousness, we would have to fight the military and the cops at a bare minimum. I.e., the government and their forces would need to collapse.
If there isn’t, collapse wouldn’t bring anything other than suffering and shift back towards status quo.
It would take and its evils off the world stage, saving millions of lives, albeit not mine. Obviously I want collapse with class consciousness, but I’m not gonna pretend like it wouldn’t be beneficial for everyone else if disappeared overnight, because it would be.
Does collapse of US necessarily mean collapse of the supply chains?
Obviously. State collapsing = nobody is ensuring safety of trade routes anymore, nobody organizing ports, clearing international payments, controlling foreign relations to facilitate trade - in other words, the collapsed state becomes isolated. Firms that had international contracts to provide raw materials for their factories would also flee or fail, making production largely impossible.
What this leaves you with is people’s needs not being met and famine, factories that can’t produce anything, violence out of desperation and foreign peacekeeping affairs trying to keep things stable while also furthering any interests they might have (like installing a new government). This is where the mass prole death comes from.
The problem is that the military and cops are not proletarians and never will align with our interests. So even if the proletariat fully achieved class consciousness, we would have to fight the military and the cops at a bare minimum.
This is straight up just bs. Military and cops are proletarian, but are also class traitors since they protect and uphold capitalist rule. This goes against their material interests however (nobody is interested in dying for their national bourgeois at the trenches) and is a product of bourgeois society instilling nationalism and war propaganda into its populace.
Also if you were to look at previous revolutions, military was instrumental as most would refuse to shoot at masses of workers trying to overthrow the bourgeois rule and emancipate themselves, joining their side and overwhelming the government. Without the military joining the side of proletariat, the revolutionaries are no match against trained military tactics and equipment. With a collapsed state, the threat becomes foreign military intervention which would result in the exact same premise.
Anyway this is my last wall of text that nobody reads, I cba to explain basic history or economics anymore.
We can’t really agree to disagree on wishful thinking vs centuries of materialist analysis that has been historically proven time and time again, sorry.
Accumulated value being destroyed doesn’t just mean physically existing property (e.g. factories and houses) but also fictitious capital such as bonds and stocks which would result in instant wipe out of capital on paper, collapse of existing factory supply chains meaning they can no longer produce nor sell profitably which devalues them significantly and I can go on and on. This would allow capital abroad to fill in these market spaces with their own produce and enjoy increased profits since competition just got taken out.
Also, it’s not up to some “communists and socialists” to pick up the slack - for a revolution to happen, the proletariat as a class has to rise up and fight for their own emancipation. The job of communists is to shift the consciousness from trade union (e.g. merely making conditions better) to communist consciousness (e.g. abolishment of the current state of things) and making sure the revolution succeeds via leadership. Without that, literally nothing can be achieved apart from mere spectacle, as shown by urban guerillas, years of lead and so on, and any collapse would just result in different reactionaries taking power as history shows.
If there’s actual class consciousness in a country, collapse isn’t necessary at all. If there isn’t, collapse wouldn’t bring anything other than suffering and shift back towards status quo.
No we actually can agree to disagree, because maybe I have reached my conclusions through a materialist but distinct analysis. Reasonable minds can differ on most things. Give it a shot!
Good. It wasn’t real anyways, so we shouldn’t be playing along like it is.
Does collapse of
necessarily mean collapse of the supply chains? I’m skeptical that workers will stop working in absence of the 
boot; if anything, workers will be more productive.
As long as “leadership” doesn’t mean a vanguard, then I really don’t have any problems with the second paragraph, and frankly it is a more precise version of what I want to see.
The problem is that the military and cops are not proletarians and never will align with our interests. So even if the proletariat fully achieved class consciousness, we would have to fight the military and the cops at a bare minimum. I.e., the
government and their forces would need to collapse.
It would take
and its evils off the world stage, saving millions of lives, albeit not mine. Obviously I want collapse with class consciousness, but I’m not gonna pretend like it wouldn’t be beneficial for everyone else if 
disappeared overnight, because it would be.
Obviously. State collapsing = nobody is ensuring safety of trade routes anymore, nobody organizing ports, clearing international payments, controlling foreign relations to facilitate trade - in other words, the collapsed state becomes isolated. Firms that had international contracts to provide raw materials for their factories would also flee or fail, making production largely impossible.
What this leaves you with is people’s needs not being met and famine, factories that can’t produce anything, violence out of desperation and foreign peacekeeping affairs trying to keep things stable while also furthering any interests they might have (like installing a new government). This is where the mass prole death comes from.
This is straight up just bs. Military and cops are proletarian, but are also class traitors since they protect and uphold capitalist rule. This goes against their material interests however (nobody is interested in dying for their national bourgeois at the trenches) and is a product of bourgeois society instilling nationalism and war propaganda into its populace.
Also if you were to look at previous revolutions, military was instrumental as most would refuse to shoot at masses of workers trying to overthrow the bourgeois rule and emancipate themselves, joining their side and overwhelming the government. Without the military joining the side of proletariat, the revolutionaries are no match against trained military tactics and equipment. With a collapsed state, the threat becomes foreign military intervention which would result in the exact same premise.
Anyway this is my last wall of text that nobody reads, I cba to explain basic history or economics anymore.