It’ll get nuked before it collapses, and the world will go down with it.
Huh… Do you not think it’s already there?
Yes! Noe that its collapsing, surely someone will sell me their house for $300! So they can buy someone else’s house for $300?
How’s that gonna work?
It cannot. The housing market needs houses that are affordable without ripping people off. I propose that corporations be given “tokens” in exchange for forcibly removing their ownership from all the houses they own.
By collapsing the housing market, the price for housing would also collapse.
Feel like I’m handcuffed to someone deliberately trying to drown themselves.
this is what republicans do every time they’re in power, they’re predatory disaster capitalists…create targeted disruption/general chaos to generate “volatility/liquidity” insiders can make a killing on.
then establishment dems come in and do the same thing, but they atleast want to keep up veneer of stability and (absolute minimal) progress.
this cycle has repeated itself many times now
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Hmmm collapse of country with enough nukes to blow up planet several times. What could go wrong?
The USSR collapsed with a large amount of nukes.
The USSR has about twice a many nukes in 1991 as the entire world has today.
Californians: don’t make the same mistake Ukraine did.
Yah it will get you Tankiepoints™ out the wazoo to say you pray for the collapse of the USA but with every other country’s economy tied to the US dollar, that outcome will be less than ideal when you want to go to your local market and buy food or medicine in almost every other country on Earth.
I get downvotes when I remind people of this fact like I’m making an argument for something. Talk to your local leaders about why they have invested so much in the US, not me.
Which is also a cute segue to remind people that all the loot and cash that Trump’s people are scooting out the back door of our treasury? That’s YOUR money also Mr and Mrs Europe, Canada, Mexico, etc.
Yeah, US collapse means a billion people die as a result of the global economic collapse that would result.
I get exhausted on Lemmy in particular trying to explain to the nihilistic, cynical teens here that such an outcome would in fact, be a bad thing.
Tankiepoints™
Can I redeem my Tankiepoints at a participating retailers whenever I want, or do they expire eventually?
In the Hearts Of Iron IV store you can trade them to have your custom fursona painted on the side of your SU-122.
Of the half billion or so actual joined-an-org-and-doing-work communists, the number who are fans of such a niche videogame category is basically a rounding error, and being a furry is even less common.
But I think I know every one of them.
I’ve read more than one economist say there’s less than a year left of the dollar being the world reserve currency. Whatever timeframe I am not sure, but it’s definitely not a forever thing.
I mean, if the US dollar does collapse it certainly won’t be a forever thing, but the people with the most money in the world have a LOT of resources to keep things the way they are. I’ll be surprised if the keepers of the cash let the cash become devalued.
The wealthy don’t keep much cash. I’m pretty sure Trump has said that he wants a weaker dollar, or at least implied it. I’ve heard some people speculate that the admin is purposely trying to end the dollar’s status as the world’s de facto reserve currency. If they’re serious about bringing most manufacturing back to the US, the dollar needs devalued, and real wages need to plummet. The admin is also heavily involved in crypto schemes.
Almost every currency, crypto included is valued against the USD, I just don’t see everyone moving to dogecoins if suddenly it costs $340,000 to buy a hamburger. There is very real incentive to throw every possible resource behind keeping the middle-class complacent and comfortable for as long as possible.
Happened to the USSR and we’re still around, but even Yeltsin was more rational than the christofascists running the US so who knows?
That’s some wild proposition, with a high value of truth. What is this?
Thats my fear. Imagine of the ppl that got trump in power got some nukes or like corpos?
Walmart or Amazon now a nuclear power is a terrible thought.
Walmart or Amazon now a nuclear power is a terrible thought.
Given that the US government exists to make megacorps like that as powerful as possible, they already effectively are, they’re just saved the inconvenience/expense of directly maintaining their own military and nuclear stockpile.
My bigger concern tbh is a post-balkanization Texas or Utah. Evangelicals and Mormons are a whole lot more likely to let the nukes fly to bring about the end times imo.
Counterpoint: Yeltsin was drunk all the time, and ran out into the street naked, at least once. Trump has yet to do this.
Let’s forget about raping children… I guess.
Trump is a tee totaller, but we might get his demented ass stumbling into a river like Yeltsin.
nothing, because people who hope for this also think when it happens they will be the action hero that saves everyone else.
they tend to lack the understanding of complex institutional systems that safeguard things like nuclear weapons, because they basically hate/blame them for their own unhappiness with their lives.
Only the sick fanatic nuts of the shitraeli genocide entity would use them.
Well its the remnants of america. The same folks that cook bacon with guns. These are not the sane folks
Nah, I would love if the US was actually a thriving, just, compassionate, and educated nation that used their power for good in the world. That would be much better than a US collapse.
That and the whole billions dying as a result of US collapse isn’t great either.
I just want them to keep it to themselves. Whatever they produce, just stay in borders, that’s all I ask.
Me too, but I also believe that collapse is a fundamental part of the natural cycles that govern everything in the universe. It’s hubris to think humans can exempt themselves from this natural system, and the belief that we can is a large driver of why we find ourselves here.
We can’t just skip collapse, nor can avoid it. Embrace its coming and celebrate what will grow from it.
the issue is americans at large don’t want that. they don’t vote for it and they tend to hate any candidate that supports those things.
Americans very much love the struggle bus they create for themselves. it’s part of our cultural mythology. so much so that even those at the tippy top will love to tell you about how their life is a struggle of heroic overcoming of the difficult upbringing of only having mere millionaire parents.
That’s the opposite of a collapse. We call that a prolapse.
Can’t do that without revolution. The US Empire is itself a genocidal settler-colony, it must fundamentally be replaced. Working class orgs like PSL are the best path forward.
I’m not even focused on its origins because many things start for one reason and continue for another but the problem with the US is that it never fundamentally changed. Its methods changed, its culture changed, but the result is still fundamentally the same, just slower and more devious.
You could retain the territory and people but the system itself must fundamentally change, which as you stated can likely only happen through revolution, because the system certainly does not seem capable of overhauling itself.
Yep, but we should study its origins as they do have a factor on how we got here. Dialectical and historical materialism helps us see what needs to be done.
Can’t do that without revolution.
Which is still about a century away.
What makes you say that?
The vast, vast majority of this country who are only marginally invested in politics combined the needs of capital to secure that stability will override whatever political ambitions any leadership has in the long-term. All of the current crisis is still just a flash in the pan, it will pass, the pendulum will swing the other way and the cycle will continue. I’ve been watching it a long ass time, I have seen nothing yet that makes me believe the country will experience wide-scale change.
It’s going to get more authoritarian broadly, it’s going to have more unrest and reduced rights, particularly as the climate changes and the immigration situation gets a lot more inflamed as refugees start piling up to get in, but right now, unless a LOT of people make a lot of huge changes to their media consumption habits, we’re going to see a rougher, nastier status-quo for decades to come.
The USA is a HUGE boat that turns slowly, it’s not one country, it’s 50. And because of that, small changes have huge consequences but only decades down the line. Few people who haven’t actually traveled the nation really get the scale involved and what has to change before we see lasting change.
With every crisis, with every bit of imperilism that dies, the Statesian public becomes more aware of their chains. Media is only useful for giving people narratives they want to agree with, not for convincing people outright. The Empire is dying, and with it comes dramatic radicalization. Even looking at younger generations over time, communism is rapidly rising in popularity:
Quantitative buildup is reaching qualitative leaps, like heating water until it boils. It looks like nothing’s happening until suddenly everything is.
Same but i don’t think that’s compatible with the current design. I’m not a collapsvocate, btw.
Yeah and I’d love if the ingredients in my fridge became a fully cooked meal instantly
Unfortunately sometimes you need an intermediate step… May not be easy or pretty.
I wish it could be so, though.
In this analogy nobody is making food though, just unplugging the fridge.
But then it wouldn’t be
. It would be something else. And would have to go the way of the dinosaur for that to happen.It would, but as usual things have to get much worse before they get better.
Yeah it’s kinda hard for the US to collapse. There’s redundancy in the government. Even if the feds lose control there’s the state government. Seems like economic collapse would have to happen for collapse of anything else
Well, they’re trying the economic angle too believe me
yeah that’s true. I know the government has set up so banks get cheap loans from the reserve so that banks can determine who gets loans and who doesn’t. that seemingly has screwing over more and more people… seems like the population has to be more proactive about collapse or reform of America
That’s bound to happen anyway.
It has always lived beyond their means with the help of the reserve currency which won’t last for long but mostly with vulgar looting and thieving from the rest of the world.The US is unlike every other developing or even developed nation that has gone through revolution for two huge reasons:
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It’s not one big country, it’s 50 smaller countries, each with its own power and systems and elections. If you’re going to collapse a system you have to do it 50 goddamn times perfectly.
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Nobody here is even remotely close to an actual “revolution” on either side of the political spectrum. Despite the huge marches and protests and violence the world sees out of the USA right now, the vast majority of the hundreds of millions of people here are mostly tuned out. The economic machine is grinding away harder than ever, and powered by a vast segment of the population who get all their news from 30-minutes of facebook memes on a Sunday night while getting ready for bed.
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what people fail to get is that while the USA fucks up, it is pretty good at fixing shit when it does.
a lot of the biggest economic and reform booms in our history were the product of near collapses.
people generally resist change until it’s forced upon them by circumstances like depressions, wars, and oil shocks, etc.
now’s the time to get really active in your immediate local community, figuring out a barter system & pooling resources so everyone will be okay during a collapse.
if you live near fairly conservative people, try starting it off with making a local directory of small businesses & trades, so people can support them. that’s a great starting point for getting to know who has what skills in your local area.
then after a while, you can try expanding that to making a local directory of resources and/or tools, and frame it as a way of sticking it to bigger businesses. “why should everyone buy their own separate lawnmower when people can borrow mine & the few others already in people’s garages? we win, walmart loses!”
We don’t have to assume total collapse, we can organize in working class parties like PSL so that when crisis hits, we can successfully overthrow capitalism and instate socialism.
we can do both, imo! working class parties are great at organising folks on a larger scale, and on a smaller scale, sharing skills & resources in our local communities will still be useful under socialism, or even just in the case of bad storms & businesses being temporarily shut down
Completely agreed, then! Just wanted to state that maintaining revolutionary optimism needs to be maintained, if we only look to local organizing we’ve essentially already given up. If we use each to supplement each other, though, then we plan for the best and prepare for the worst!
what if my immediately local community is full of leftists who mostly want to take from other people and give to themselves?
then you have misidentified them, those aren’t leftists.
try the same tactics anyway. you don’t have to be best friends with your neighbours & agree with them on everything in order to set up a mutually beneficial system, but that system will never get made if everyone just dismisses the possibility before ever making an attempt.
that’s weird, they tell me that they are leftists and that if I disagree with them at all them I’m not a leftist.
Then they lecture me about how privileged I am and I should just shut up and listen to them because my any thoughts or opinions of my own are automatically wrong because they come from a position of privileged rather than oppression. And I point out I grew up working class from a low income family. Then they tell me to go fuck myself how dare I even talk to them since I’m clearly a MAGA supporter if I am working class, and I shouldn’t have been allowed to go to college because clearly I’m so stupid for not being a ‘real leftist’ like them.
then i’m sorry that you’ve had that experience.
maybe try to organise a directory of local businesses/services/shared resources etc without discussing politics at all, if it’s something that gets people in your locality upset.
if your area has to deal with some extreme weather & gets flooded, for example, ensuring that everyone can stay fed & have access to medical care will be a lot easier if the groundwork has already been done in advance.
The collapse of US hegemony is good for everyone
Nah, not really. A different (not necessarily better or worse, just different) world hegemony will just emerge
Aslo the transition gonna be painful (see: yugoslav war)
*everyone except for a few dozen people throughout the entire world.
Yeah but those few dozen people are more important than everyone else /s
The collapse of US hegemony is good for everyone
Good luck with a world of Chinese hegemony.
As I heard some Africans say China will come and try to buy our stuff if we say no they go to our neighbors, America will come and try to buy our stuff and if we say no they send the military.
Except that’s bullshit. What China is actually doing is taking out land and resource leases for flat fees, and then moving their own people into the Africa country to extract the resources for pennies on the yuan.
USA wasn’t doing any of that. They were mostly trying to tell African governments to stop being so corrupt and putting all sorts of limits and terms on aid service. But the leaders in the governments didn’t like that. They liked getting big fat checks from China for resources they had no ability to extract themselves. China is more than happy to support corrupt and dictatorial governments, because well, that’s what they are. They are also more than happy to sell them weapons systems and technology for lower costs and without the restrictions that come on the US/European ones.
It’s colonialism. it’s just the Chinese version of it. If you are support of authoritarian colonialism and exporting dictatorial governments over democratic ones, of course you’d see China as the preferred power.
The Saudis and other rising middle powers are also trying to get in on this game. Every nation to be a hegemonic power to the extent that they can.
The US Empire (and Europe as well) is the one installing compradors. No, the US Empire isn’t trying to tell people to “not be corrupt,” they want that so the comoradors sell out their countries and force austerity, privatization of nationalized industries, etc. This is how imperialism works, and is why the US Empire has hundreds of overseas millitary bases while the PRC has ~3. If you nationalize your resources, the US Empire tries to destroy you, because the US Empire depends entirely on this system of super-exploiting for super-profits.
BRI and the PRC’s presence in Africa and the global south in general isn’t imperialist. The PRC is expanding trade, but not dominance, nor does its trade deals come at the barrel of a gun. They trade with pretty much everyone, and support their allies, but this is not imperialism. To the contrary, the PRC is acting against imperialism.
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Is China a Better Partner for Africa than Europe and the West?
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The Fallacy of Denouncing Both Sides of the US-China Conflict
And many, many more sources back this up. It’s no secret that imperialists have been trying to smear China into being “no better” than the west, but the reality on the ground is that partnering with China results in mutual development and cooperation, while partnering with the west results in stripped autonomy, underdevelopment, and exploitation.
As for China’s democracy, it’s actually better than the US Empire by a wide margin. Public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, and the CPC, a working class party, dominates the state. At a democratic level, local elections are direct, while higher levels are elected by lower rungs. At the top, constant opinion gathering and polling occurs, gathering public opinion, driving gradual change. This system is better elaborated on in Professor Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance, and we can see the strong perceptions around this democracy:
This is despite the Three Represents system. Overall, this system has resulted in over 90% of the population approving the government, which is shown to be consistent and accurate.
Overall, you have a deeply confused notion of what’s going on in the global south. The US is the world’s largest empire and is colonizing the world, China is focusing on win-win economic development.
Dumbass accelerationists are probably responsible for this mess.
For fascists being fascists or for feckless liberals’ complete inability to stop them?
For staying out of it and trying to convince liberals to stay out of it, so that the motivated fascists outvote the staying-at-home liberals.
That’s the whole goal of accelerationism; it’s not an accident.
Ah, yes, those dozen or so accelerationists, not the systemic problems plaguing America for decades, the weak and/or complicit ruling class or the useful idiots defending all of the above, are the cause of this totally not inevitable collapse of the American status quo. Go on, I’m listening.
Late-stage imperialism is what’s responsible. The Empire is dying, but capitalism and imperialism aren’t sustainable in the long run. “Accelerationists” are extremely fringe and have no real impact.
Most of these “accelerationist” probably aren’t living in US, anglosphere, or EU, and live in 3rd world nation. So they couldn’t care less about the collapse of the US and whoever are the world hegemon is. Since it probably won’t have any effect their (already hard) life, 'cept economy ofc (dollar being fucked means everybody gonna get fucked).
Literally. The rich will cut off their own nose just to short their face.
It’s like that drop at the edge of the window sill. You know it’s gonna eventually fall but for some reason it just keeps hanging on.
Middle class 14 year old leftists and self-hating third worldists try not to jerk off at the thought of proles in the west dying challenge (impossible)
Wanting the imperial hegemon to dissolve isn’t exclusive to either of those groups, and would significantly advance the aims of socialists globally. The western labor aristocracy is gradually aligning more with the glonal south as the bribes of imperialism dry up and austerity is forced domestically, so the chance of socialist revolution is increasingly greater than 0. Quantitative buildup is resulting in qualitative leaps.
Within the empire itself, younger generations are increasingly in favor of communism. Not socdem “socialism,” but communism. That doesn’t mean they are all committed Marxists, but the trend is extraordinarily positive and aligns with the deterioration of the labor aristocracy. This genocidal settler-colonial empire is finally reaching levels of sharpened contradictions that are forcing the populace to get organized.
If by “socialists globally” you mean hitlerite AES nation states (e.g. China, Vietnam) then yes it would benefit them immensely as now their capital accumulation gets boosted and they get to do more imperialism in the future as there’s less competition now. If you mean sub-20 member student uni book clubs, then yes it would also benefit them as now they have more stuff to larp about.
In either case, a collapse of US doesn’t help the real movement. If anything, the collapse would get rid of a ton of accumulated value, temporarily increasing the rate of profit abroad and bribing the labor aristocracy that presumably is aligning itself with global south (though I call BS, they’re as hitlerite as ever) back to defending global capital which would be counterintuitive.
When I say “socialists globally,” I mean it quite literally, as the international socialist movement. This includes AES states, which you call “Hitlerite” and “imperialist,” as well as the working class in the global south and global north. AES states, where public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy and the working classes in charge of the state, are entirely different from fascist states where private ownership is principle and the bourgeoisie in charge of the state.
Confusing the fact that private ownership exists with it being principle is placing form over essence, and focusing on similarities (having a strong state and some degree of private ownership) while ignoring differences (the commanding heights of AES states are publicly owned and the working class runs the state). Further, these countries aren’t imperialist either, this has no real basis.
The idea that the international working classes would not benefit from the dissolution of the international dictatorship of the bourgeoisie sides with the labor aristocracy and imperialists over the imperialized. You have an extreme chauvanism towards the global south in calling them “hitlerite,” which you keep passing around like candy without basis. You’re acting as a social chauvanist here, using socialist phrasemongering to argue for the perpetuation of the US Empire.
Nothing screams socialism more than class collaboration, active expansion of commodity production and commodity accumulation, funding military junta in Myanmar and so on. At this point China would only become socialist if its capital forces magically became conscious and went against it’s own interests.
Also good job with the slander on that last paragraph. All nation states are hitlerite, no matter if global north or south as they all brutalize their proles, are ruled by bourgeois and would happily go colonialist imperialist if they were in an economic position that necessitated it. The real chauvinism is putting some states on a pedestal and masking it with moralizing bullshit.
Also you ought to know the difference between “arbitrary collapse wouldn’t be useful and would just bring unnecessary suffering” vs “I support this empire and hope it stays forever!”. I’d much rather see all the contradictions result in US becoming a genuine DOTP once workers there finally wake up rather than millions dying for no reason other than revengeism and for some other capitalist state to take over.
China isn’t class collaborationist, they have a dictatorship of the proletariat. The fact that the bourgeoisie exist there does not mean they have leverage over the state, and the commanding heights of industy are out of their hands. There’s no such thing as class collaborationism, this is a lie told by socdems to keep the bourgeoisie on top. In reality, the state can only be under the control of a single, definite class, and in the PRC that class is the proletariat. Building up the productive forces and having significant exports as a means for technological transfer and development is a good thing, actually.
It seems it wasn’t a strawman at all, really. In insisting that every nation is “hitlerite,” no matter if they are socialist, imperialized, or colonized, you take a stance of inaction. This is exactly what I was getting at when I said you’re phrasemongering, social chauvanism to justify inaction against imperialism and siding with the imperialists and labor aristocracy.
You also ought to know that nobody really hopes for collapse over socialist revolution in the US Empire. That would be the best for everyone, but failing that the death of the world’s imperial hegemon would be dramatically positive. Dissolution of the US Empire removes the largest obstacle holding global development back, and eliminates this genocidal settler-colony once and for all.
If China’s bourgeois were truly powerless with no leverage and there’s no class collaborationism going on, they wouldn’t keep them and instead nationalize everything - after all, why keep a parasitic middle man that just sucks up billions in surplus value? To build up productive forces the bourgeois aren’t necessary - the state could handle it just fine.
Also, despite being a “DOTP”, China goes against worker interests almost every step of the way. Commodity production fundamentally relies on exploitation of workers and is in the interest of capital, the supposed proletarian party is actively letting bourgeois to join as seen with Three Represents for instance, independent labor unions are crushed, international proletariat interests are also being betrayed by China (like supporting Ukraine, their recent affairs within Africa, the junta I mentioned), economic imperialism via initiatives such as BRI, etc.
Painting a bourgeois nation red is such an effective strategy to fool leftists I swear. Maybe once third imperialist war drops, every bourgeois state is gonna be calling themselves socialist! Who knows…
Why does China have to nationalize the small proprietorships, agricultural cooperatives, and mid-sized secondary industries for you to accept that the bourgeoisie is kept out of political power? Markets are fairly useful for developing industry, and if private ownership has no dominance over the commanding heights of industry then that don’t have political power over the socialist state. If China was controlled by the bourgeoisie, then we wouldn’t see executions of billionaires at a regular basis, nor would we see such dramatic investment in infrastructure meant for the working classes.
The state could nationalize everything, sure. Under the late Mao period and during the Gang of Four, they had higher rates of public ownership, but growth was uneven. Reform and Opening Up, along with the crucial aspect of technology transfer, stableized growth and slightly increased it:
This strategy of maintaining public ownership as the principle aspect and relying on markets to help facilitate gaps left by the socialist system in a controlled manner have had dramatically positive results. They of course aren’t without new contradictions, but at the same time the presence of contradictions does not imply that the bourgeoisie are in control. This approach to socialism is elaborated on by Cheng Enfu:
Currently, the PRC is working towards the intermediate stage of socialist construction, per the chart.
As for the state being run by the working classes, this is also pretty straightforward. Public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, and the CPC, a working class party, dominates the state. At a democratic level, local elections are direct, while higher levels are elected by lower rungs. At the top, constant opinion gathering and polling occurs, gathering public opinion, driving gradual change. This system is better elaborated on in Professor Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance, and we can see the class breakdown of the top of the government itself:
This is despite the Three Represents system. Overall, this system has resulted in over 90% of the population approving the government, which is shown to be consistent and accurate.
Independent labor unions aren’t allowed, correct, nor do they need to be. Unions are required to be a part of the All-China Federation of Trade Unions, and aren’t allowed to be independent from that federation. This isn’t a violation of worker rights, though, as the only purpose rogue unions would serve is undermining the socialist system, and would be vulnerable to foreign backing (such as from the US Empire).
BRI and the PRC’s presence in Africa and the global south in general isn’t imperialist either. The PRC is expanding trade, but not dominance, nor does its trade deals come at the barrel of a gun. They trade with pretty much everyone, and support their allies, but this is not imperialism. To the contrary, the PRC is acting against imperialism.
-
Is China a Better Partner for Africa than Europe and the West?
-
The Fallacy of Denouncing Both Sides of the US-China Conflict
And many, many more sources back this up. It’s no secret that imperialists have been trying to smear China into being “no better” than the west, but the reality on the ground is that partnering with China results in mutual development and cooperation, while partnering with the west results in stripped autonomy, underdevelopment, and exploitation.
The idea that the PRC is a “bourgeois state painted red,” and that that’s why many Marxist-Leninists are “fooled” into supporting it, is ignoring my very clear arguments that public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, with the working classes in charge of the state. Your most compelling argument seems to be that they could sacrifice the economic growth that Reform and Opening up brought and stuck with a more totally planned economy similar to the DPRK, but the fact that they are taking a different path does not mean that they are taking the wrong path, one where the bourgeoisie control the state and private ownership is principle, ie capitalism.
Again, your greatest error is in confusing form for essence, and only seeing similarities while ignoring differences. This causes you to make frankly absurd statements like “every nation state is hitlerite,” regardless of results and structure.
bruh fuck these western proles, if we can’t even get off our asses to save ourselves then I’m willing to say drop the dead weight, save the rest of the word
Imma be real, browsing lemmy and seeing liberal and leftist nonsense, the “resistance” (taking a sick day off is now a general strike apparently) and the general teamsport politics do make me want to start kkklacking at the keyboard and go full third worldism
Too bad every country is hitler and thirdworldism is just nationalist moralism
“quote”Collapse of
≠ deaths of proles in If anything, the death of the
project will save millions of proletarian lives, including proles living within .Yup, once the only bad country in existence (US) is out of the picture, every other country that currently exist, who definitely don’t brutalize proles and certainly don’t have any interest in imperialism will turn communist and end centuries of suffering for all…
Collapses too are notoriously peaceful and civil and certainly don’t result in millions of deaths until another bourgeois hitler takes power
Yup, once the only bad country in existence (US) is out of the picture, every other country that currently exist, who definitely don’t brutalize proles and certainly don’t have any interest in imperialism will turn communist and end centuries of suffering for all…
I think you’re yelling at someone else? Maybe OP? I’m not pro-{any country}, but I am an anarchist and
is absolutely my biggest op right now.Collapses too are notoriously peaceful and civil and certainly don’t result in millions of deaths until another bourgeois hitler takes power
The status quo is more dangerous than collapse, full stop. Whatever millions of deaths the collapse of
will cause in the short term, capitalism as it currently exists will cause orders of magnitude more in the longer term (eventually all of us!) and more than collapse even in the short term, but just in ways that are designed to be hard to notice.No, collapse of US wouldn’t even really hurt capitalism - all it’s gonna do is change what nation state is currently the center of capital (likely Germany, Japan or China) who would pick up the slack and status quo is maintained.
In fact, a collapse of such a large hegemony would probably bolster global capital given how it’d take out a ton of accumulated capital, solving overproduction (main capitalist contradiction) for the short-term and making countries temporarily prosper in a fashion not too dissimilar to post-WW2 era. This would legitimize rule of capital further since the times are good.
I’m with you on the first paragraph, hence why downfall of the US is necessary but insufficient for communism.
In fact, a collapse of such a large hegemony would probably bolster global capital given how it’d take out a ton of accumulated capital
Yeah if
got nuked into the stone age or otherwise completely obliterated all at once, but if it fell to consistent communists or socialists, the accumulated capital would be expropriated and given back to the people, right?solving overproduction (main capitalist contradiction)
I don’t think that
is the only country causing overproduction.This would legitimize rule of capital further since the times are good.
Which is why our comrades outside of
need to prepare for our downfall and learn the lessons of our genocidal history, namely to never settle for what the capitalists offer you.
But we can honestly agree to disagree on the details of the future. My main goal is to demonstrate that there is an anti-
position that isn’t just “Middle class 14 year old leftists and self-hating third worldists try not to jerk off at the thought of proles in the west dying”. Like is the flag of the people who want to put me and my family and all my friends and all my comrades in camps. Of course I’m rooting for its downfall!We can’t really agree to disagree on wishful thinking vs centuries of materialist analysis that has been historically proven time and time again, sorry.
Yeah if got nuked into the stone age or otherwise completely obliterated all at once, but if it fell to consistent communists or socialists, the accumulated capital would be expropriated and given back to the people, right?
Accumulated value being destroyed doesn’t just mean physically existing property (e.g. factories and houses) but also fictitious capital such as bonds and stocks which would result in instant wipe out of capital on paper, collapse of existing factory supply chains meaning they can no longer produce nor sell profitably which devalues them significantly and I can go on and on. This would allow capital abroad to fill in these market spaces with their own produce and enjoy increased profits since competition just got taken out.
Also, it’s not up to some “communists and socialists” to pick up the slack - for a revolution to happen, the proletariat as a class has to rise up and fight for their own emancipation. The job of communists is to shift the consciousness from trade union (e.g. merely making conditions better) to communist consciousness (e.g. abolishment of the current state of things) and making sure the revolution succeeds via leadership. Without that, literally nothing can be achieved apart from mere spectacle, as shown by urban guerillas, years of lead and so on, and any collapse would just result in different reactionaries taking power as history shows.
If there’s actual class consciousness in a country, collapse isn’t necessary at all. If there isn’t, collapse wouldn’t bring anything other than suffering and shift back towards status quo.
We can’t really agree to disagree on wishful thinking vs centuries of materialist analysis that has been historically proven time and time again, sorry.
No we actually can agree to disagree, because maybe I have reached my conclusions through a materialist but distinct analysis. Reasonable minds can differ on most things. Give it a shot!
bonds and stocks which would result in instant wipe out of capital on paper
Good. It wasn’t real anyways, so we shouldn’t be playing along like it is.
collapse of existing factory supply chains
Does collapse of
necessarily mean collapse of the supply chains? I’m skeptical that workers will stop working in absence of the boot; if anything, workers will be more productive.As long as “leadership” doesn’t mean a vanguard, then I really don’t have any problems with the second paragraph, and frankly it is a more precise version of what I want to see.
If there’s actual class consciousness in a country, collapse isn’t necessary at all.
The problem is that the military and cops are not proletarians and never will align with our interests. So even if the proletariat fully achieved class consciousness, we would have to fight the military and the cops at a bare minimum. I.e., the
government and their forces would need to collapse.If there isn’t, collapse wouldn’t bring anything other than suffering and shift back towards status quo.
It would take
and its evils off the world stage, saving millions of lives, albeit not mine. Obviously I want collapse with class consciousness, but I’m not gonna pretend like it wouldn’t be beneficial for everyone else if disappeared overnight, because it would be.
Speak for yourself, I’m jerking off to the thought of Western empires losing the ability to project power against the third world. Will there be a lot of death and destruction involved? Yes, but I lost the ability to care one genocide ago. Will other empires rise to fill the gap? Also yes. Will they be as irredeemably evil as America? Probably not.
It will not collapse. Look on other authoritarian regimes rilled by oligarchs.
Russia, North Korea, china, an do on. Today’s invigilation methods, cameras everywhere, paid influencers, tons of agents in a potential rebellious organizations, lack of free media… In Ttese countries opposition is in a way worst situation, exploitation, lack of free media, independent courts… and there is no revolution or collapse.
Probably there will be more politic prisoners in the USA, more uniforms, attack on independent media, organizations. If these collapse, USA is fucked.
loving the idea that the WPK maintains control through the power of paid tiktok influencers
