This ethical position is such crap in the modern era and if you take it you simply aren’t going to be contributing to this conversation much longer. Unless you go full stallman and get a specific laptop from 15 years ago with very specific hardware that you can flash and install very specific software onto it you have to make peace with the fact that as a modern consumer the landscape has fucked you.
Your choices are to moderate how fucked yoh get in terms of anticonsumer bullshit because the market is stacked against you and the illusion of choice is always there. HDMI is a great example, smartphone platforms outside of android and ios is another. Are their options outside of these walled gardens? Technically but they’re generally much worse and often cost more than a comparable model.
It’s just you can refuse to buy an iphone, you can refuse to buy an android, but you can’t really refuse to buy a smartphone in the modern era. You can refuse to buy a tv but you can’t really refuse to buy a display of some kind. You might think you beat the system if you just get a laptop or computer monitor I guess but not really, monitors increasingly don’t have DP and frankly the whole “vote with your wallet” thing is stupid anyway. Consumers are idiots who will continually vote to fuck themselves. We need regulatory oversight.
You’re saying “'Abolish all money” is anarcho-capitalist propaganda?" LOL, that’s significantly stupider than anything I ever expected to read. Congratulations. 🤡
Quit posting corporate propaganda. The government can regulate all they want. Businesses are malicious and just exploit loopholes everywhere and pay off the politicians. Taking away their motivation is not something they can get around.
See how well that has worked over the past 40 years? I mean don’t buy shit you don’t support obviously but don’t expect a personal boycott or even advocating heavily for others to the same to have any kind of impact whatsoever.
It’s because the average consumer is dumb but this isn’t an indictment of the average consumer, necessarily. The average consumer doesn’t want to have to do research on every fucking thing they buy to find out the nefarious bullshit about it. Oh the tv doesn’t support open connection standards, oh my phone is a walled garden built for data collection, oh this smart lightbulb is a privacy nightmare with bullshit tos and also has security issues, etc. They just want to go on amazon or to home depot or whatever and buy shit that looks like it will do what they need for a price point they can afford.
That’s where regulatory oversight comes in: given the above and a consistent lack of consumer ability to enforce standards we need political oversight to pick up the slack. This is a unified arm where a consumer frustration can turn into action much more quickly, even if sales continue because of market fuckery (eg tvs still selling because you can only buy hdmi TVs). But unfortunately we live in a country where the tech industry has performed a near and total regulatory capture and has no fear that regulatory oversight will ever occur, and they’re probably right, at least for now.
So you’re wrong that it’s the only way, and I would argue it’s the most ineffective and inefficient way. It just feels like it’s the only way because of our failed state political situation where even a regulatory concern that should be a slam dunk like right to repair often either fails or only passes in a greatly neutered state because the local politicians thought Microsoft and Apple made some great points about preventing local jobs so that tech billionaires could continue to make even more money
See how well that has worked over the past 40 years?
…extremely well? Can you provide an example of the contrary?
don’t expect a personal boycott or even advocating heavily for others to the same to have any kind of impact whatsoever.
…of course a single person boycotting a product does nothing. People educating themselves about the products they buy and making conscious decisions to buy consumer-friendly products when buying shit (especially expensive shit) does.
They just want to go on amazon or to home depot or whatever and buy shit that looks like it will do what they need for a price point they can afford.
Plenty of people know and just don’t care. I know because I have these types of conversations all the time.
That’s where regulatory oversight comes in
See how well that has worked over the past 2000 years?
As to other reply: what times has vote with your wallet truly worked? Especially in terms of anti consumer decisions and not just culture war bullshit where the sales trends are almost always temporary and linked to collective groups that apply pressure onto retailers.
People educating themselves doesn’t happen, is the point. People don’t want to do this about every fucking thing. You’re on lemmy. You’re a fucking nerd. I’m not disparaging you, I’m here too. I like researching my product purchases and I get angry about this shit. But my partner? My parents? My neighbors? My siblings? Most of the people I work with? They don’t give a fuck. They don’t want to be bothered. They want to just buy a tv and watch it. We are the minority.
This pipe dream that an overwhelming majority of consumers will suddenly become extremely conscious and educated is, at best, misguided. So let’s say you set up the framework for it: it’s already mostly there, obviously, since you and I can find this info. But then you need to address why most people don’t care. Education? Resources? Other systemic issues? Good luck doing that on a timeline that isn’t generational. In the meantime big tech tightens their stranglehold significantly on the systems that control the majority of the fucking world.
I have seen how regulatory oversight can work. It’s a fight and a battle to keep it working, of course, with constant attacks. That’s why regulatory states that have seen some success, like the EU, are failing, and others that are seeing increasing success, like China, are demonized continually even though they are quickly outranking the USA in almost every major quality of life metric
As to other reply: what times has vote with your wallet truly worked?
Already answered this several times, including the comment you just replied to.
People educating themselves doesn’t happen, is the point.
Yes, that is indeed the point.
This pipe dream that an overwhelming majority of consumers will suddenly become extremely conscious and educated is, at best, misguided.
That doesn’t make anything I said untrue.
others that are seeing increasing success, like China, are demonized continually even though they are quickly outranking the USA in almost every major quality of life metric
You think China, of all places, is making consumer-focused and ethical products?
China sees increasing success because they have no minimum wage and no concept of IP. So the world outsourced vast swathes of production infrastructure there only to have all their IP stolen and reproduced without any of the R&D costs. Then the government sudsidizes it to hell even further so that they can apply the Amazon model of enshittification to the global economy.
How does a subscription compare to TV purchases? How does that one instance of politically driven consumer action equate to “every time ever”? Have you heard of Nestlé? People have boycott them forever and they still exist. Why?
Got it, so in your case, if it applies to your argument, it’s possible and works “every time ever”, and if it goes against your argument, it doesn’t exist and no one is boycotting.
You are not arguing in good faith, and only want to be right in this instance.
I’m sure you’ve never bought a display, GPU, or computer with HDMI, and I’m sure you’ve advocated for your friends and family to stop buying anything with HDMI certification. Right?
This ethical position is such crap in the modern era and if you take it you simply aren’t going to be contributing to this conversation much longer. Unless you go full stallman and get a specific laptop from 15 years ago with very specific hardware that you can flash and install very specific software onto it you have to make peace with the fact that as a modern consumer the landscape has fucked you.
Your choices are to moderate how fucked yoh get in terms of anticonsumer bullshit because the market is stacked against you and the illusion of choice is always there. HDMI is a great example, smartphone platforms outside of android and ios is another. Are their options outside of these walled gardens? Technically but they’re generally much worse and often cost more than a comparable model.
It’s just you can refuse to buy an iphone, you can refuse to buy an android, but you can’t really refuse to buy a smartphone in the modern era. You can refuse to buy a tv but you can’t really refuse to buy a display of some kind. You might think you beat the system if you just get a laptop or computer monitor I guess but not really, monitors increasingly don’t have DP and frankly the whole “vote with your wallet” thing is stupid anyway. Consumers are idiots who will continually vote to fuck themselves. We need regulatory oversight.
Voting with your wallet is literally the only way things will ever improve.
Quit posting ancap propaganda.
The way this sort of thing would actually improve is by government regulation.
“Vote with your wallet” is not ancap propaganda. “Abolish all money” is.
You’re saying “'Abolish all money” is anarcho-capitalist propaganda?" LOL, that’s significantly stupider than anything I ever expected to read. Congratulations. 🤡
What? Ancaps absolutely want money. communists don’t
Quit posting corporate propaganda. The government can regulate all they want. Businesses are malicious and just exploit loopholes everywhere and pay off the politicians. Taking away their motivation is not something they can get around.
See how well that has worked over the past 40 years? I mean don’t buy shit you don’t support obviously but don’t expect a personal boycott or even advocating heavily for others to the same to have any kind of impact whatsoever.
It’s because the average consumer is dumb but this isn’t an indictment of the average consumer, necessarily. The average consumer doesn’t want to have to do research on every fucking thing they buy to find out the nefarious bullshit about it. Oh the tv doesn’t support open connection standards, oh my phone is a walled garden built for data collection, oh this smart lightbulb is a privacy nightmare with bullshit tos and also has security issues, etc. They just want to go on amazon or to home depot or whatever and buy shit that looks like it will do what they need for a price point they can afford.
That’s where regulatory oversight comes in: given the above and a consistent lack of consumer ability to enforce standards we need political oversight to pick up the slack. This is a unified arm where a consumer frustration can turn into action much more quickly, even if sales continue because of market fuckery (eg tvs still selling because you can only buy hdmi TVs). But unfortunately we live in a country where the tech industry has performed a near and total regulatory capture and has no fear that regulatory oversight will ever occur, and they’re probably right, at least for now.
So you’re wrong that it’s the only way, and I would argue it’s the most ineffective and inefficient way. It just feels like it’s the only way because of our failed state political situation where even a regulatory concern that should be a slam dunk like right to repair often either fails or only passes in a greatly neutered state because the local politicians thought Microsoft and Apple made some great points about preventing local jobs so that tech billionaires could continue to make even more money
…extremely well? Can you provide an example of the contrary?
…of course a single person boycotting a product does nothing. People educating themselves about the products they buy and making conscious decisions to buy consumer-friendly products when buying shit (especially expensive shit) does.
Plenty of people know and just don’t care. I know because I have these types of conversations all the time.
See how well that has worked over the past 2000 years?
As to other reply: what times has vote with your wallet truly worked? Especially in terms of anti consumer decisions and not just culture war bullshit where the sales trends are almost always temporary and linked to collective groups that apply pressure onto retailers.
People educating themselves doesn’t happen, is the point. People don’t want to do this about every fucking thing. You’re on lemmy. You’re a fucking nerd. I’m not disparaging you, I’m here too. I like researching my product purchases and I get angry about this shit. But my partner? My parents? My neighbors? My siblings? Most of the people I work with? They don’t give a fuck. They don’t want to be bothered. They want to just buy a tv and watch it. We are the minority.
This pipe dream that an overwhelming majority of consumers will suddenly become extremely conscious and educated is, at best, misguided. So let’s say you set up the framework for it: it’s already mostly there, obviously, since you and I can find this info. But then you need to address why most people don’t care. Education? Resources? Other systemic issues? Good luck doing that on a timeline that isn’t generational. In the meantime big tech tightens their stranglehold significantly on the systems that control the majority of the fucking world.
I have seen how regulatory oversight can work. It’s a fight and a battle to keep it working, of course, with constant attacks. That’s why regulatory states that have seen some success, like the EU, are failing, and others that are seeing increasing success, like China, are demonized continually even though they are quickly outranking the USA in almost every major quality of life metric
Already answered this several times, including the comment you just replied to.
Yes, that is indeed the point.
That doesn’t make anything I said untrue.
You think China, of all places, is making consumer-focused and ethical products?
China sees increasing success because they have no minimum wage and no concept of IP. So the world outsourced vast swathes of production infrastructure there only to have all their IP stolen and reproduced without any of the R&D costs. Then the government sudsidizes it to hell even further so that they can apply the Amazon model of enshittification to the global economy.
Can you provide evidence of it working extremely well?
This is my response, how often do companies acquiesce to consumer pressure in any meaningful way? This is like asking to prove a negative
Every time ever? How about Disney getting mass subscription cancellations after canning Kimmy Kimmel?
They can’t sell shit that people don’t buy.
How does a subscription compare to TV purchases? How does that one instance of politically driven consumer action equate to “every time ever”? Have you heard of Nestlé? People have boycott them forever and they still exist. Why?
How does it not? It’s a withheld purchase (AKA “voting with your wallet”)
It doesn’t and wasn’t supposed to. The last part did.
They obviously don’t or they wouldn’t exist.
Got it, so in your case, if it applies to your argument, it’s possible and works “every time ever”, and if it goes against your argument, it doesn’t exist and no one is boycotting.
You are not arguing in good faith, and only want to be right in this instance.
I’m sure you’ve never bought a display, GPU, or computer with HDMI, and I’m sure you’ve advocated for your friends and family to stop buying anything with HDMI certification. Right?
The only way? Literally?
Yes, that’s what I said.
This explains so much why actual voting numbers are so poor in the US…
…wat
Well, apparently in your opinion, money is the only way to have effective change in the world. Any other attempt to do so will fail miserably.
It’s not the only way to affect change. It is the only way to make businesses respect their customers. What is your point?