But these are two different things though. In this case Streicher was taking action. He was directly working for the Nazi party, and his job was to convince people that the Nazi crimes were not only okay, but they should be celebrated and expanded. His actions actively aided the genocide, he was a part of the Nazi machine. That’s not a private citizen with personal opinions and beliefs.
That’s very a big difference between him and some modern neo nazi who spends all day picking his nose, scratching his ass, and posting on 8chan about the world is controlled by the “joos”. As long dickheads like this keep their vile views to themselves, then I don’t think they should be legally persecuted simply for holding vile opinions. However, the moment their words turn into actions or the clear intention to implement neo nazi bullshit, then that’s when they should get persecuted by the law.
Charlie Kirk gave material support (a significant amount, to the point where Trump himself admitted he wouldn’t have won without him) to fascists. I think he himself would have balked at you suggesting that he wasn’t active in getting the current regime to where it is.
There’s two issues with your take here. First, I never even implied that Kirk wasn’t a big Trump supporter, that was his whole shtick as a grifter. That’s just obvious, and nobody is arguing otherwise. Second, is being a Trump supporter now enough grounds to justify killing people? I agree that Trump and MAGA are pretty Fascist in nature, however the fact remains that Kirk was a private citizen at the end of the day. He was not an elected official and he did not hold any public office. He was just an activist/grifter who made a career simping for Trump. Hate him all you want, I certainly did, but killing him or anybody over this sort thing is a huge red line that should never be crossed. There’s a reason why societies throughout history that resorted to using violence for political discourse out of convenience rather than necessity are the ones always ended up being lead by a depraved tyrannical regime. There are many more lessons to learn from history than just acknowledging that Nazis are bad.
And if the Trump administration were exterminating people in death camps and had been convicted in international criminal court then you would have a point.
As it is the administration is obviously ignoring its own laws and being disgusting with racial profiling when deporting immigrants in the country illegally, and grabbing legal immigrants and citizens through this overzealousness and rule/law breaking.
The US is not committing a holocaust against Hispanics. It is not committing one against the LGBTQ community either. Even if you believe that the US is capable of committing one here and that it is coming, it is not happening yet and so Charlie Kirk cannot be an execution for propaganda supporting mass murder/genocide that has already taken place.
Execution for crimes that will be committed in the future is execution for thought crime or execution for free speech.
That is not what I am saying at all, we have many other options before getting to killing as the solution. Learning from history is the point, but you do not jump the gun on death being the penalty for things. The ammo box is the last box to be used for a reason.
If you are not talking obliquely about extrajudicial killings, why are you saying opposing it means we can do nothing until the genocide happens? You were talking about the execution of a propagandist that supported the Holocaust as a direct comparison with Kirk. This comparison can really only be used as an explanation for why it was somehow acceptable for him to be killed. The up thread was about justifying Kirk’s death as a Nazi propagandist.
How so? I think there’s a very clear distinction between the example he gave and what I was talking about. Streicher was a full blown Nazi party member and he held public office under their rule. His position in government is to actively enable a genocide through propaganda. That’s not a private citizens with vile opinions, that’s a public official acting on his beliefs directly. If Streicher was a private individual who held Nazi beliefs, he would have not been hanged for them because those are just his opinions, as vile as they may be.
Kirk was directly tied into the Trump administration. He himself sent busloads of followers to help storm the capital. Kirk’s jobs was to convince people that the genocidal plans of the Christian Nationalists are OK and should be celebrated and expanded. By the time you get to the level of power and influence of Kirk, you’re not really a private citizen anymore. He was instrumental in getting Trump elected. Yes, he doesn’t have a formal position in the government, but most of the charges against Streicher were for things that had nothing to do with the little bit of power he briefly had.
Kirk was a piece of shit, you’re not going to find me defending him for what he did or stood for. My point is that the way he got killed is not acceptable. He shouldn’t get honored or anything like because fuck him, but cheering the way he got killed is not okay either. He wasn’t killed under the death penalty by the state, there was no due process, and there wasn’t even a valid reason for his death. He was gunned down in broad daylight in the middle of a public crowd by some random guy who didn’t like his political views… how is that not fucking crazy to you? Y
ou’re trying very hard to justify it because you don’t like him, but you don’t seem to understand that this isn’t about him specifically. I don’t like Kirk either, but you’re not going to find me trying justify this type of political violence because it sets a dangerous precedent that violence is an acceptable part of political discourse. Political violence is always a two way street. Just as you’re trying to justify and cheer on this guy’s death and how he was killed, you’re making it more normalized and more likely that some conservative whacko isn’t to shoot down some left wing figurehead, and they’ll use the very same arguments and justifications that you’re using now. If you can’t accept someone like Hasan Piker or Nina Turner getting gunned down, then why would you cheer this on? If you condemn their deaths, but not Kirk’s death or others like him, then you don’t have any principles to stand on.
Sorry. Don’t lecture to me about the dangers of political violence when we’re talking about someone that actively championed literal genocide. In a just world he would have been tried and hanged for crimes against humanity.
Kirk already engaged in political violence. He encouraged his followers to countless acts of violence. You’re just mad when people dare to fight back against their oppressors. You call it a two way street, but it was already a one-way street. Right wingers are allowed to plot literal genocide, and the rest of us are supposed to just sit back and pretend it’s just fine and normal.
No, sorry. Fuck everything about that. The world is a better place with Charlie Kirk firmly in the ground. He was a mass murderer.
I already made it clear multiple time that I don’t like Kirk or what he stood for, but even I, as someone who can’t stand him, can clearly see that you’re just making shit up as you go try to come up with anything to justify his murder. It’s honestly embarrassing. It’s so obvious that you lack the merits to come up with a genuine case to justify his murder because you don’t have any principles to stand on whatsoever. This is evidenced by the fact that you’re unable to even acknowledge any point I’ve made, let alone give any counter argument as to why you disagree.
Face it, given your melt down here, it’s crystal clear that you’re aware that your stance is simply indefensible because you’re only possible positions is to be a hypocrite, a tyrant, or both. Nobody with any reasonable set of morals, basic understanding of history, or just logically thinking through the consequences can come up with a rational defense for something so unbelievably backwards and dangerous as trying to cheer on political violence. It’s an inherently absurd stance.
And the Trump administration has not yet committed any Holocausts or genocide yet. At this point in time it is still “future crime”. The Trump admin hasn’t been convicted in the Hague of genocide.
Once Trump opens death camps and starts exterminating LGBTQ people, only then does Kirk rises to the level of Streicher. Until that point, it is execution for political disagreement and free speech. You don’t have to like the guy in any way for that to be wrong.
We don’t want to set a precedent that the best way to change someone’s political ideology is to kill them to eliminate that ideology.
I feel like you’re reading to me a yugioh trap card that only activates when our opponent summons a big monster. God, the waiting must be agony.
You don’t have to like the guy in any way for that to be wrong.
I think death just makes you feel icky. Like, in general.
I don’t care that Kirk died. I’m not saying it’s a good omen for things to come, exactly, but I can’t even pretend to give a shit. The world does not need him.
I really don’t know how I should reply to this. Like yes, murder in general is something I am not fond of, and I am pretty sure that is a normal response?
Politically motivated murder is also something I find a specific version of repugnant, no matter the politics of the victims. I think the same about the Minnesota legislators. I feel the same way about the attack on Paul Pelosi, and I think Nancy should be a criminal. Neither deserve to be killed. Killing political opponents is the ultimate breakdown of society.
I am not squeamish about death in general however, be it war or accidents or suicide. Death happens, it’s part of life. I can look as Russian soldiers dieing in Ukraine as both a senseless waste of life and totally necessary and warranted at the same time as they are an invading army. I may even experience some schadenfreude, but know intellectually that it’s not something that should be celebrated.
If someone does something stupid like try to pet the Bison in Yellowstone, I think it’s tragic for their family while being the obvious outcome of their jack of judgement. Before you make the comparison, one side of that obvious outcome of stupidity is a literal wild animal without the ability to reason.
It’s the murder part that makes me “feel icky”, not the death part.
Why are you describing this to me like you’re getting a secret snack from the kitchen.
and I am pretty sure that is a normal response?
It is, but it’s strongest among people who were taught that wishing ill on the ones cracking their whip is impolite.
Kirk’s final words on this great green earth were “tranny tranny tranny, black gang violence, 13:50.” Is this really worth ruining your mood over? Like, it’s Sunday, you should take your son to the park or something.
It is, but it’s strongest among people who were taught that wishing ill on the ones cracking their whip is impolite.
It’s strongest among those that were taught that everyone is human.
Charlie Kirk’s death may or may not be worth ruining anyone’s mood over, but sectarian violence that threatens to snowball is. Even if the shooter turns out to be an even further right white Christian nationalist doing this to cause a further erosion of the divide, it works if people on the left are celebrating.
Oh well, you know what they say, and eye for an eye will blind my enemies more and then everything will be just fine.
But these are two different things though. In this case Streicher was taking action. He was directly working for the Nazi party, and his job was to convince people that the Nazi crimes were not only okay, but they should be celebrated and expanded. His actions actively aided the genocide, he was a part of the Nazi machine. That’s not a private citizen with personal opinions and beliefs.
That’s very a big difference between him and some modern neo nazi who spends all day picking his nose, scratching his ass, and posting on 8chan about the world is controlled by the “joos”. As long dickheads like this keep their vile views to themselves, then I don’t think they should be legally persecuted simply for holding vile opinions. However, the moment their words turn into actions or the clear intention to implement neo nazi bullshit, then that’s when they should get persecuted by the law.
Charlie Kirk gave material support (a significant amount, to the point where Trump himself admitted he wouldn’t have won without him) to fascists. I think he himself would have balked at you suggesting that he wasn’t active in getting the current regime to where it is.
There’s two issues with your take here. First, I never even implied that Kirk wasn’t a big Trump supporter, that was his whole shtick as a grifter. That’s just obvious, and nobody is arguing otherwise. Second, is being a Trump supporter now enough grounds to justify killing people? I agree that Trump and MAGA are pretty Fascist in nature, however the fact remains that Kirk was a private citizen at the end of the day. He was not an elected official and he did not hold any public office. He was just an activist/grifter who made a career simping for Trump. Hate him all you want, I certainly did, but killing him or anybody over this sort thing is a huge red line that should never be crossed. There’s a reason why societies throughout history that resorted to using violence for political discourse out of convenience rather than necessity are the ones always ended up being lead by a depraved tyrannical regime. There are many more lessons to learn from history than just acknowledging that Nazis are bad.
And if the Trump administration were exterminating people in death camps and had been convicted in international criminal court then you would have a point.
As it is the administration is obviously ignoring its own laws and being disgusting with racial profiling when deporting immigrants in the country illegally, and grabbing legal immigrants and citizens through this overzealousness and rule/law breaking.
The US is not committing a holocaust against Hispanics. It is not committing one against the LGBTQ community either. Even if you believe that the US is capable of committing one here and that it is coming, it is not happening yet and so Charlie Kirk cannot be an execution for propaganda supporting mass murder/genocide that has already taken place.
Execution for crimes that will be committed in the future is execution for thought crime or execution for free speech.
Ah OK, so we have to let them systematically murder countless people before we can do anything. Got it.
It’s not like we should ever learn from history, and try to do things differently this time.
And by the way, I’m not talking about extrajudicial killing. We were talking about Nazi trials.
That is not what I am saying at all, we have many other options before getting to killing as the solution. Learning from history is the point, but you do not jump the gun on death being the penalty for things. The ammo box is the last box to be used for a reason.
If you are not talking obliquely about extrajudicial killings, why are you saying opposing it means we can do nothing until the genocide happens? You were talking about the execution of a propagandist that supported the Holocaust as a direct comparison with Kirk. This comparison can really only be used as an explanation for why it was somehow acceptable for him to be killed. The up thread was about justifying Kirk’s death as a Nazi propagandist.
What you’re saying here directly contradicts your previous comment.
How so? I think there’s a very clear distinction between the example he gave and what I was talking about. Streicher was a full blown Nazi party member and he held public office under their rule. His position in government is to actively enable a genocide through propaganda. That’s not a private citizens with vile opinions, that’s a public official acting on his beliefs directly. If Streicher was a private individual who held Nazi beliefs, he would have not been hanged for them because those are just his opinions, as vile as they may be.
Kirk was directly tied into the Trump administration. He himself sent busloads of followers to help storm the capital. Kirk’s jobs was to convince people that the genocidal plans of the Christian Nationalists are OK and should be celebrated and expanded. By the time you get to the level of power and influence of Kirk, you’re not really a private citizen anymore. He was instrumental in getting Trump elected. Yes, he doesn’t have a formal position in the government, but most of the charges against Streicher were for things that had nothing to do with the little bit of power he briefly had.
Kirk was a piece of shit, you’re not going to find me defending him for what he did or stood for. My point is that the way he got killed is not acceptable. He shouldn’t get honored or anything like because fuck him, but cheering the way he got killed is not okay either. He wasn’t killed under the death penalty by the state, there was no due process, and there wasn’t even a valid reason for his death. He was gunned down in broad daylight in the middle of a public crowd by some random guy who didn’t like his political views… how is that not fucking crazy to you? Y
ou’re trying very hard to justify it because you don’t like him, but you don’t seem to understand that this isn’t about him specifically. I don’t like Kirk either, but you’re not going to find me trying justify this type of political violence because it sets a dangerous precedent that violence is an acceptable part of political discourse. Political violence is always a two way street. Just as you’re trying to justify and cheer on this guy’s death and how he was killed, you’re making it more normalized and more likely that some conservative whacko isn’t to shoot down some left wing figurehead, and they’ll use the very same arguments and justifications that you’re using now. If you can’t accept someone like Hasan Piker or Nina Turner getting gunned down, then why would you cheer this on? If you condemn their deaths, but not Kirk’s death or others like him, then you don’t have any principles to stand on.
Sorry. Don’t lecture to me about the dangers of political violence when we’re talking about someone that actively championed literal genocide. In a just world he would have been tried and hanged for crimes against humanity.
Kirk already engaged in political violence. He encouraged his followers to countless acts of violence. You’re just mad when people dare to fight back against their oppressors. You call it a two way street, but it was already a one-way street. Right wingers are allowed to plot literal genocide, and the rest of us are supposed to just sit back and pretend it’s just fine and normal.
No, sorry. Fuck everything about that. The world is a better place with Charlie Kirk firmly in the ground. He was a mass murderer.
I already made it clear multiple time that I don’t like Kirk or what he stood for, but even I, as someone who can’t stand him, can clearly see that you’re just making shit up as you go try to come up with anything to justify his murder. It’s honestly embarrassing. It’s so obvious that you lack the merits to come up with a genuine case to justify his murder because you don’t have any principles to stand on whatsoever. This is evidenced by the fact that you’re unable to even acknowledge any point I’ve made, let alone give any counter argument as to why you disagree.
Face it, given your melt down here, it’s crystal clear that you’re aware that your stance is simply indefensible because you’re only possible positions is to be a hypocrite, a tyrant, or both. Nobody with any reasonable set of morals, basic understanding of history, or just logically thinking through the consequences can come up with a rational defense for something so unbelievably backwards and dangerous as trying to cheer on political violence. It’s an inherently absurd stance.
And the Trump administration has not yet committed any Holocausts or genocide yet. At this point in time it is still “future crime”. The Trump admin hasn’t been convicted in the Hague of genocide.
Once Trump opens death camps and starts exterminating LGBTQ people, only then does Kirk rises to the level of Streicher. Until that point, it is execution for political disagreement and free speech. You don’t have to like the guy in any way for that to be wrong.
We don’t want to set a precedent that the best way to change someone’s political ideology is to kill them to eliminate that ideology.
I feel like you’re reading to me a yugioh trap card that only activates when our opponent summons a big monster. God, the waiting must be agony.
I think death just makes you feel icky. Like, in general.
I don’t care that Kirk died. I’m not saying it’s a good omen for things to come, exactly, but I can’t even pretend to give a shit. The world does not need him.
I really don’t know how I should reply to this. Like yes, murder in general is something I am not fond of, and I am pretty sure that is a normal response?
Politically motivated murder is also something I find a specific version of repugnant, no matter the politics of the victims. I think the same about the Minnesota legislators. I feel the same way about the attack on Paul Pelosi, and I think Nancy should be a criminal. Neither deserve to be killed. Killing political opponents is the ultimate breakdown of society.
I am not squeamish about death in general however, be it war or accidents or suicide. Death happens, it’s part of life. I can look as Russian soldiers dieing in Ukraine as both a senseless waste of life and totally necessary and warranted at the same time as they are an invading army. I may even experience some schadenfreude, but know intellectually that it’s not something that should be celebrated.
If someone does something stupid like try to pet the Bison in Yellowstone, I think it’s tragic for their family while being the obvious outcome of their jack of judgement. Before you make the comparison, one side of that obvious outcome of stupidity is a literal wild animal without the ability to reason.
It’s the murder part that makes me “feel icky”, not the death part.
Why are you describing this to me like you’re getting a secret snack from the kitchen.
It is, but it’s strongest among people who were taught that wishing ill on the ones cracking their whip is impolite.
Kirk’s final words on this great green earth were “tranny tranny tranny, black gang violence, 13:50.” Is this really worth ruining your mood over? Like, it’s Sunday, you should take your son to the park or something.
It’s strongest among those that were taught that everyone is human.
Charlie Kirk’s death may or may not be worth ruining anyone’s mood over, but sectarian violence that threatens to snowball is. Even if the shooter turns out to be an even further right white Christian nationalist doing this to cause a further erosion of the divide, it works if people on the left are celebrating.
Oh well, you know what they say, and eye for an eye will blind my enemies more and then everything will be just fine.
No, it doesn’t. You are castrating yourself before the enemy.
What public mandate allows conservatives the crackdown on liberal cities if nobody cares about the excuse they give?