What’s up with this straight up pro-china and pro-russia stuff on Lemmy lately?
It’s not even praising the people of China and Russia, but rather their gov directly.
Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.
Is this some kind of organized disinformation campaign?
This post got brigaded; you know, that thing that the very same people accuse us of 📽
https://sh.itjust.works/post/44029753
Some of them even broke out their alt accounts, which they use exclusively for vote-spamming. One of them has a two year old account that’s never made a single post or comment. We ban those.
“Was I brainwashed by Western propaganda?”
“No, only shithole commie countries like China have propaganda”
lmfao hooman rights is when you do genocide and jail people protesting it
Evil china and evil russia have never done anything to my country while the US and Europe did and continue to do so, is that clear enough?
Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.
Excuse me? The US treats my people like animals and you want to bring human rights into the picture?
ok but have you considered chinese imperialism!!! they’re invading the world with cheaper, better and faster smartphones and ethically made synthetic diamonds that are materially indistinguishable from the diamonds mined by slaves owned by the west and various renewable energy tech that will absolutely be used to steal solar energy from countries investing in it and definitely not help countries divert away from broken-down non-renewable energy infrastructure depedent on Western private companies to “maintain”!!
don’t you get me started on russian imperialism… You don’t wanna get me started!
What an absolute clusterfuck of a thead. Isn’t .ml a leftist lemmy?..
Do you really have to ask this question lol?
Lemmy.world is full of libs who will take you with open arms, trust me.
I saw China take COVID seriously while I was marched off to work to die because my job was “essential” - the US, EU, Canada, it was basically every Western country except New Zealand (which is an island and basically became a bunker nation for billionaires and shouldn’t really count)
I became pro-China after that.
Ml was always pro china pro russia nothing new. I am more worried about the rise of zionism apologists
I’d like a definition of “pro-Russia” and “pro-China.” Does crediting other countries for any progress, while your own country goose steps towards fascism, considered a “pro” stance? Russia and China are reacting to attacks from the West.
The US always needs a boogeyman to justify massive defense spending
and that’s usually us on the third world.
China has human rights. E.G. Trans people get gender affirming healthcare, jobs, food, and housing. Something that the U.S. does not guarantee and is actively trying to ban transgender affirming care. One of the most famous people in China is Jin Xing a trans woman. The Chinese government does not restrict transgender people in the same way that the UK and the U.S. does. Largely it is social stigma that remains in China, which will and has been changing over time.
Tbh in China it varies a LOT by region how you’ll be treated socially. There’s some places where trans people have dedicated medical centers and others where they’ll be persecuted. It’s a failure of uneven development they’re trying to fix. The govt there recently banned the sale of hormones online which really complicated things for trans women.
The govt there recently banned the sale of hormones online which really complicated things for trans women.
That’s if you don’t have a prescription, while the process is some what tedious to get a prescription people were giving themselves doses far above what is recommended so it was out of concern for safety not a malicious intent unlike what we see in Western countries. I would like to see China do informed consent for HRT and lift some of the barriers though.
As far as the rural v urban divide, it is a tale as old as time, not something unique to China, but at least they are doing something about it.
You can get hormones by eating gonads (eg ovaries, uterus, testes), that’s part of how those meds are made. So it won’t stop people from getting them, it just means their doses will be unpredictable.
What’s your point?
I agree that treatment seems a non issue, but from what I’ve seen the social stigma is incredibly significant. I forget their handle, but there was a trans man on rednote that had alot to say about the stigma in his part of china. That isn’t to say the US is any better though.
That’s Theo and his rednote videos are very insightful. There probably could be better education surrounding trans people done in China to help reduce the stigma, but that is the case in nearly every country. I think as people continue to be open and vulnerable about what it means to be transgender and people become more exposed to transgender people that social stigma will change. It is part of why I live openly and honestly as a trans person. Every generation of queer folk has paved the way for the rest of us.
Ah thank you for the name drop! And yeah, I hope things improve!
And the situation with the uigurs?
China’s claim is that anything that is being done is being done to combat islamic fundamentalist groups/extremists. This seems to be backed up by international support from Muslim countries.
Genocide claims were always unfounded. However, no matter how nice the guided tours of reeducation facilities look, they are still in effect prisons, and we of course don’t know about the things that we aren’t being shown.
If your position on the topic is anything more than “They may or may not be treated that good”, you have information that nobody else has.
There are prisons, of course. Every country has them. And some terrorists did get prosecuted and imprisoned. They weren’t hypothetical terrorists. Locals were getting stabbed, shot, run over, and bombed by them. So of course any non-radicalized Uyghur—which were the vast majority—wanted the terrorism to stop as much as anyone else, just as there were scarcely any US Muslims cheering as the Twin Towers fell. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China#Chronology_of_major_events
But the job training facilities weren’t/aren’t prisons. Those who didn’t live near the schools traveled in for the week, received room & board, and went back home on weekends.
I appreciate your correction Davel. I’ve seen some of your posts/comments in the past and they have always been informative on this topic.
I understand western notions of prisons paint ugly pictures of grey walls and metal bars so if they are given that much autonomy during the process, maybe that term was misleading and I apologize.
I do take issue with the hypothetical terrorist rebuttal though, because the same thing can be applied to the US policies. Yes, we did have terrorist attacks done against us. That doesn’t mean that every person we locked up as a terrorist was one.
You might have the trust that China is telling the truth and isn’t doing something similar, that’s a valid enough position to have. Im still not personally convinced.
Yes, we did have terrorist attacks done against us. That doesn’t mean that every person we locked up as a terrorist was one.
I’m sure some mistakes were made because no system will ever be perfect, but socialist states are fundamentally different from a capitalist, imperialist, globally hegemonic state. Without evidence, there’s no reason to assume that China’s handling of it was analogous to ours.
I have disagreements that China is currently socialist, but that is outside the scope of the original discussion.
Most Western Marxists do disagree, as I also used to.
Cultural genocide is still genocide. You can get into if it’s to combat extremism as a separate statement.
Cultural genocide is still genocide.
Yes, by some laws/conventions/definitions of genocide it is, but China isn’t even doing that. Previously. Previously.
What about it? Say what you mean.
The genocide of them that ML refuses to acknowledge.
We absolutely do refuse to acknowledge a thing that never happened, that the US/CIA/NED made up after their “color revolution” attempt failed.
Alright, I expect some evidence of that claim. Please no CIA sources, I’d like to save us some time.
“please give me evidence” “only sources I like”. I’m not wasting my time sourcing things that you will deny.
You can’t bring us evidence because there isn’t any.
The US tried to foment division in China by funding and organizing Salafi terrorist into Xinjiang, and once its efforts failed, it made lemonade out of its lemon by concocting and promoting a genocide narrative.
The only countries pushing this narrative are the “always the same map” imperial core countries, which just so happen to be largely the same ones supporting Israel’s genocide.
Almost no predominantly-Muslim country buys the Uyghur genocide narrative, because they know it’s bullshit, because they talked to the Uyghurs themselves.
https://twitter.com/un_hrc/status/1578003299827171330#HRC51 | Draft resolution A/HRC/51/L.6 on holding a debate on the situation of human rights in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of #China, was REJECTED.
- The Uyghur Human Rights Project is a product of the National Endowment for Democracy, which is the American government’s main regime change NGO.
- A Reddit AMA Claiming To Be A Uyghur Quickly Exposes A CIA Asset Slandering China
- The Xinjiang Genocide Allegations Are Unjustified
- Uyghur genocide allegations
- American Debunks All Major Western Propaganda on Uyghurs and Xinjiang
- US-Funded Uyghur Activists Train as Soldiers of Empire
- The blueprint of regime change operations How regime change happens in the 21st century with your consent
“uigurs”
Yea I couldn’t spell it and autocorrect wasn’t about to help me.
Some good answers already here, but I can only answer for myself: I used to be that kind of leftist that was “Well I want socialism, but not like those scary foreign authoritarian countries. They’re doing it wrong! Or that’s not really socialism!” At some point after learning more history and talking with others online, I’ve softened my view on these places. Some of that is learning that some of what I knew about them was straight up misinformation, but some of it comes from a shift in perspective: These aren’t abstract ideals of countries. They’re real countries. With real people, real histories, real material conditions, real geopolitical relationships to deal with, etc. They’re doing something really difficult and it’s really easy to be an armchair quarterback while sitting cozy in the US where I don’t have to deal with any of their tough decisions or the consequences of them. Am I happy with them doing some authoritarian policies? No. But maybe they’re necessary to deal with the interference of the US? I don’t know for sure if that’s the best approach, but I don’t have to imagine the counterexample of what it looks like if you don’t take defensive measures, the US has helpfully provided a bunch in the form of all of the countries they’ve backed coups in for the crime of electing even a slightly leftist government. We could squabble about better ways to deal with this, but neither of us has the full context to have an educated discussion on the matter. Also for the genuinely bad stuff, I wouldn’t go as far as specifically supporting those things, but it’s worth putting them in perspective. You can’t talk about China online without someone bringing up Tienanmen Square, meanwhile the US has been a never-ending avalanche of evil in it’s short history, but you can talk about any number of things not related to politics in the US without a random leftist wandering into the discussion about the latest hollywood movie shouting the entire lyrics to “We Didn’t Start the Fire.” I mean we’re happy to bring all that stuff up if it’s in the right context, but people are so deranged about communist countries that the ONLY thing they can think to bring up in relation to them is their less savory moments that may or may not even be true/exaggerated.
It’s really hard to sort good information from bad about these places because there’s so much propaganda. I get that those other countries have an incentive to put out their own propaganda, but it’s hard for me to know what their reach is or what their motivations are or how much they are lying vs countering US misinfo. Meanwhile I KNOW the US has a fairly sophisticated system of propaganda spanning government agencies, media companies, NGOs, etc. I KNOW the US is motivated to prop up the interests of capitalists and try to stop other countries from pushing back against them. A lot of the bad shit and lies the US has done is just straight up declassified history. So I’m sorry if I’m a little skeptical about what the empire that’s made it it’s business to deny self-determination to countries around the world has to say about those countries.
As for Russia, I’m not specifically a supporter. Ever since the USSR collapsed they’ve been another capitalist, imperialist country. But in terms of scale they’re just not even remotely comparable to the US. They are at worst a regional power and outside of nukes can’t really threaten the US on the global stage. So when the US war machine starts saber rattling about them, I know what it’s for because I’ve seen it a million times before. We always need an external enemy to justify the massive amount of money we spend on the military and all of the capitalists who profit from it. Even if I think it would be good if someone in the region pushed back against Russian aggression, I think feeding the beast that is the US military industrial complex is a net negative for the world. Not that I really have any say in it. I can’t remember the last time my congressperson or senator asked if I wanted to give another couple billion dollars to their friends in the “defense” industry. And then of course there was all the hysteria about Russian interference in our elections from the Democrats. I don’t even care if they’re right or wrong. That’s besides the point. The function of the claims is what is more valuable to look at: The implication of “Russia is subverting our democracy by interfering in our elections.” is “We had a previously uncorrupted democracy before the Russians got involved. Please ignore how our own billionaires have bought out all of our elections.” It’s a way to shore up support for a failing system by externalizing it’s problems.
I just want to live in a world where we can all live dignified lives. US capitalists are the current greatest obstacle to that dream. I’d rather have imperfect allies against that than throw my lot in with the “Endless war, exploitation, and ecological collapse” team.
Well said.
wow this one spawned a hell of a struggle session
Russia first invaded Ukraine in 2014 ran a proxy war in the interim and has failed to complete it’s military objectives after nearly four years of total war?
Russia has over a million casualties.
Is this what winning looks like?
Tribalism is a cancer. We dont need it anymore.
United we stand, divided we fall.
Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.
The US has big problems with human rights, that start with zionist first rule, and needing misery and oligarchist pillaging to make Americans have bigger problems than warmongering, Israel supremacy, directly corrupt and rigged elections, or “well first they are comming for the others”, and I still have bigger problems.
The NATO colonies are even far worse. Democracy means rule by those allowed by CIA, with population programmed with CIA values. The CIA programming, and total capture of politicians, means normalizing the real enemy to the NATO colonies as a permanent friend and master. The only valid elections in entire world are those approved by CIA values. Never any need for evidence of invalidity, you just take State Department/Elon Musk view that “we will coup whoever we want to coup”.
Our countries dress pure corruption as freedom. While freedom seems awesome, the freedom to corrupt, lie, propagandize you into oppression demonic evil diminishment of nations labelled less free, and you internalize those wars as a supremacist right instead of the theft of your prosperity simply makes the corruption of democracy too powerful relative to your critical thinking, attention and distractions from your oppression.
Without CIA influence over a country, it can hope to govern itself in national interest instead of CIA allied oligarchy. Russia and China are mostly successful at this. Freedom is awesome, but the powerful’s freedom to corrupt will always result in greater overall corruption, oppression, and oligarchism Normalizing CIA involvement in your media and democracy means your nation is doomed, and lemmy defending demonic evil corruption is the direct result of a lifetime of propaganda.
Liquid democracy is easily available with current technology. Already substantially implemented in crypto currency tokens. It’s the only real democracy. That people each have an equal share in their country’s government, and its revenue/left over revenue, is distributed as a dividend, means making sure there is a lot of left over revenue instead of corruption.
