Hey all. Getting right to it:
Last November, a majority of my wife’s family voted trump. I immediately made known my disgust and that I had no interest in maintaining relationships with any of them. My wife is equally appalled, but family is important to her and she chooses to compartmentalise it for the sake of their relationships. That’s her call. Typically, her mother comes to stay at our house for an extended period as we live far away, and this year I tolerated her being here for the sake of my wife.
But now, thinking about the next visit and how bad things have gotten, I can’t even stand the thought of having her in my house, let alone being in the same room as her. I really don’t want her here at all, but I will again tolerate her for my wife’s sake. However I think it’s likely that I will make myself pretty scarce during that time.
So the ethics question is - given that I expressed my distaste after the election but still remained cordial, is it ok, ethically speaking, to become more resentful as the consequences of their actions become more apparent? Or, given that what has happened since is pretty much out of everyone’s hands, am I locked in to the level of hostility I showed immediately after?
I guess the distilled version is - a person does X, I express disapproval. Is it ethical to express MORE disapproval as additional unforeseen consequences of X become apparent?
Thanks for your thoughts!
Edit to Clarify - My mother in law is not MAGA and I don’t think she’s enjoying any of it. She thinks we can “just not talk about it” and everything will be fine. However she has become more racist and judgemental (anti-trans etc) in recent years. Hates Joe Biden and Kamal Harris but can’t or won’t say why. Thanks for the responses so far and I’ll try to respond, but I’m about to start work shortly.
You must log in or register to comment.
You can forgive her and feel compassion for her for being misled and confused, but not allow speech that violates your own ethics in your own home. Bonus - no more resentment on your end, which is healthier for you, personally, regardless of what she chooses to do with her own life.
If your MiL voted for Trump, then she’s a filthy MAGA, stop making excuses for her. Live your normal life, yell at the news, complain loudly every time you hear another one of his inane statements, criticize loudly and often.
That’s what it’s like in a normal, patriotic American household. Make her live like a real American, and not in her imaginary alternative MAGA reality, and stop coddling her treason. Tell her you won’t tolerate talk of treason, racism, etc. Call her out EVERY time, and tell her it’s unacceptable in your house, and in YOUR America. You can say ANTHING YOU WANT, but she has to keep her treason to herself. Period, no negotiation. Freedom of Treasonous Speech does not have to exist in your house.
If she doesn’t like it, she can GTFO. We should no longer tolerate any MAGA bullshitp. It’s time to push back HARD, and don’t stop.
That’s the dream! 🤣 But it’s not the MIL I need to think about, it’s my wife.
With my ex MIL I stay friendly because she’s great in so many ways, and just act completely ignorant when she says something awful, for example:
ExMIL: I’m looking for a church but can’t find one that is Christian enough.
Me: Oh, I understand. So many are just so worldly now and not at all Christ like, they don’t welcome the stranger, they do that prosperity gospel nonsense, culture war bullshit instead of good works. That makes sense.
ExMIL: oh I meant they are too progressive, too loosey goosey (Paraphrasing)
Me: Huh?
Or
ExMIL: I don’t understand this trans nonsense.
Me: I know, right? Who gives a fuck what someone else says they are! You say you are a boy, you are a boy, it doesn’t have any effect on anyone else, I don’t understand the drama around it, at all.
Basically whenever I get a chance I just intentionally misinterpret it like there is no possibility that she meant that, because nobody could possibly mean that.
I’ve tried this. It usually ends up with them thinking you’re kinda dumb, which is ironic. But they almost never get the point and make the connection either way.
I think any response (short of something like physical assault) is probably ethical. Think about your mental health and your wife’s opinion on it too.
I hate my in-laws for similar reasons. (My wife dislikes them too.) We all have a very spoken no politics rule when we visit. This makes family gatherings more tolerable. We only see them maybe 4 or 5 times a year. We’ve definitely seen them less as things got worse politically. Last year we even skipped Thanksgiving with them.
Disclaimer: I’m not American so will never understand your culture towards politics as well.
I don’t think it’s fair to point at every bad thing Trump has done so far and say that’s the fault of your MIL for voting for Trump. The way I see it as a non-American, Trump did say he was going to be a racist xenophobic piece of shit on his election campaign, but the media heavily downplayed this, and Trump still tricked and lied to everyone. Politics is weird like that: you can theoretically campaign on one thing but then throw everything out and do the opposite once you get elected.
Hating Kamala and Biden is a fair opinion to hold as well. I consider a vote for them as picking the lesser of the 2 evils, rather than voting on what’s best for America, because both parties seemed awful to me (a non-American).
I think it’s important that you try to at least understand and empathise with why your MIL voted Trump in the first place. You were very light on those details in your post, which I suspect is because you’re very quick to judge someone based on who they vote for.
Maybe she really hated one policy from the democrats so voted for Trump? Maybe she bought all the lies Trump told during his campaign and regrets her vote strongly? Maybe she’s a single-issue person who voted for Trump because of one policy and ignored everything else?
I don’t really appreciate the way this comment equivocates the openly racist adjudicated rapist accused pedophile Trump with Biden and Harris.
Dude please please please don’t let Trump ruin your marriage. Not allowing your MIL to stay for her annual visit when your wife wants her to is gonna be a big big problem
It’s not ruining your marriage to insist that treason, racism, intolerance, pedophilia, etc. isn’t acceptable in your home. If your wife chooses that over her marriage, then you are better off. She can live with her MAGA mother for the rest of her life.
Nazism isn’t really an ideology I can tolerate
Happening to my in laws as well. I warned SO this would happen and we need to be very careful or they’ll be full maga like my parents. The fox news propaganda machine has immense power.
For your spouses sake, just stfu and dont engage with her regarding politics. Ask your spouse how she wants you to be, since the mother-in-law visiting is performative for you anyways, and you love your spouse more than you are obligated to tolerate your MIL.
Agree. I scrolled down in comments thinking I’m going to get downvoted for saying what I think. OP needs to chill. OP, is Trump going to be allowed to make you want to drive a wedge between your wife and her mother? Compartmentalise. Your wife’s family is not solely responsible for what Trump has done.
I love podcasts and I will always recommend from there. This is a fantastic episode from a fantastic series… please have a listen:
You Are Not So Smart: 306 - I Never Thought of it That Way - Mónica Guzmán (rebroadcast) - How to have more productive conversations in a highly partisan, polarized, and politicized world
You could probably make the case that I need to chill, but you seem to be making a few incorrect assumptions. I have no intention of interacting with my mother in law any more than absolutely necessary, and the sole reason she may be coming to visit ever again is because I don’t want to drive a wedge between my wife and her mother. I also don’t hold my wife’s family responsible, but by voting for him last November they all became part of the trump crowd who I collectively blame. No more, no less.
I’m definitely going to listen to that podcast. Thanks!
I’ve been gently easing the missus into the idea that I’m not going to be hanging out with her mother if she visits again. I can tell she’s conflicted, because on the one hand she’s always been exceptionally close with her, but on the other she’s just as disgusted as I am. I think we’d both be relieved if she just doesn’t visit anymore, which seems like a possibility.
I don’t think this is an ethics question, you’re asking whether resentment builds or fades over time and the answer will be very specific to each person and case. That being said there’s one thing I would like to point out:
a person does X, I express disapproval. Is it ethical to express MORE disapproval as additional unforeseen consequences of X become apparent?
Those weren’t unforseen, that’s the worst part for me, they were clearly foreseen, foretold and warned about, and I could potentially be persuaded to believe people were unaware of that the first time around, but by the second time you are obviously okay with all of it.
I’m being a little generous with that. I agree that they knew he was a piece of shit, but I think a lot of them thought he’d just hurt the people they look down on and not them.
Then fuck em, they’re MAGAts.
I promise I’m not trying to be dismissive, but do you think you might be autistic? I ask because I am and I struggle with very rigid thinking on how I should react to the consequences of people’s actions that I believe were blatantly foreseeable.
I struggle with this very same issue in my own family. I’ve already gone no contact with my older sister who went full Qanon during COVID, and I barely have a relationship with my Trump-loving grandparents anymore. That relationship is a little laden with religious trauma too, so might not be totally comparable to your situation (I still have to vaguely pretend to be Christian around them even though I’ve been staunchly atheist for twenty years).
Haha, my (likely autistic) wife and (autistic) daughters often tell me I am like it’s just a given!
This is the most damning evidence of all! When you become more aware of how your autism affects your perception, it’s easier to spot in others.
I have really high justice sensitivity, and your description of your perception changing as injustices were borne out from their actions feels a lot like how I would react. I don’t think you’re wrong at all, but I don’t think your wife is either. It’s a very hard situation. I don’t regret cutting or limiting contact with my far right family, but I would have a hard time doing that with my wife’s family for the same reasons you’ve laid out.
I’m definitely not pushing my wife in any direction, just listening and supporting. I have a hard time sympathizing with her attachment to family as mine were abusive assholes and I cut ties with them years ago. I’ll never suggest she do the same, but it wouldn’t bother me at all if she does. I learned a long time ago not to rely on anyone else.
I’m definitely not pushing my wife in any direction, just listening and supporting.
I hope your wife realizes how lucky she is
I have a similar situation and I’ve landed on “my first duty is to my wife.” What that means to you may be different than what it means to me, but that’s where you should start IMO.
To the TL;DR question, absolutely it’s ethical to be more upset as more bad things happen.
I’m like you, my first obligation is always to my wife, that’s the promise I made. But it’s never tested my principles before. I’ve already decided I’m just going to be scarce during those times. There’s been a lot of good advice here, but I was actually more interested in what ethics scholars would say regarding me feeling angrier as time goes on. The targets of my anger haven’t done anything more to deserve additional anger, it’s the consequences of what they did that continue to make me angry…
You succinctly stated exactly my thoughts on this.
I am of the opinion that not discussing these things is an analog to the Paradox of Tolerance, if not being exactly what the Paradox is about. If we don’t discuss the hatefulness, then the hateful think they are doing fine.
Attacking only causes people to “dig in”. Passive aggressive actions will make you look weak.
Being cordial while also calling out instances of hate as they occur would likely be fine. Be strong and confident, but keep corrections short and to the point (Imagine correctly a 5 year old. Understanding and care, not anger, and keep things in reality.) “That didn’t happen.”, “Why would a criminal say that?”, “Toddlers visiting basketball plays, will reduce the average height, but no one gets shorter or taller.”
That’s how I intend to approach it, during the times when I’m unable to just not be around her.
To your edit… it rather sounds like she is in fact MAGA and doesn’t want to admit to the “why”. there’s really not very many people who were both willing to vote for trump a second time and aren’t MAGA, even if they don’t want to admit it.
from an ethics stand point, I’ll remind you of an old german saying. “If 10 men are sitting at a table with a nazi, you have 11 nazis.” You cannot look at trump and honestly conclude he’s an acceptable (never mind good,) president without also agreeing with his fascist and tyrannical bullshit. if she’s genuinely unhappy with the status quo, she can show it by protesting or something. Until then, she’s still a trump supporter and still part of the problem, and there is zero excuse for not knowing what he was about. he said he was going to do everything that he’s doing. (well. maybe not the ballroom or shitting himself, but details.)
but none of us are the ones you need to be having this conversation with. we can’t decide what’s right here… that’s a personal decision you need to make with your wife.
Pretty much hit the nail on the head there boss. No matter how hard I try I can’t accept the ignorance excuse after what all of us have seen. Earlier this year I said to my mother in law “surely you knew at the time that you were doing the wrong thing?” She denied it. The best approach for me is to be around the MIL as little as possible. My wife knows that. It makes her sad, but she understands.
Resentfulness is a reaction, not a position to take.
You can either say “she’s not welcome” or “we agree to disagree and will not discuss it” and then stick to it. Your choice. But letting (welcoming?) her into your home and then resenting her presence is childish.
Take a stand, one way or another. If you let her come, then deal with it like an adult.
I immediately like and respect you. But there is some nuance. It’s not so much “letting her into my home” as it is “not preventing my wife from seeing her mother.” I’ve been preparing my wife for me to not be hanging out with them like I used to, I’ll be somewhere else or hiding out in my office.
I guess I should have been a bit clearer, but I was genuinely academically curious to know whether my increasing anger is legitimate. The general consensus seems to be it depends on their level of remorse (if any) over their choice. And that makes sense. From what I saw during this year’s visit, the MIL would just like to ignore all of it, but I don’t think that’s ok either. Fucking trump!
