I am sure this article has been shared before, however I wanted to have a look at this topic.
The articles short summary is this:
All 25 car brands we researched earned our *Privacy Not Included warning label – making cars the worst category of products that we have ever reviewed
I am currently driving a 2014 Ford Fiesta which just has a radio with a CD player and Bluetooth. I do not need more than that in a car.
The reason I am looking at all is that that the Fiesta does not belong to me and the friend owning it will be moving out in a bit, so I kinda need another one.
There seems to be one brand that is not as bad as the other ones (but still bad): Renault; mozilla’s review…
Maybe I will have a look at their cars.
What do you guys think? Stick to older used cars and not use an EV or look at which of the manufacturers have the least bad privacy policy?
I was lucky enough to buy new in 2017, just before all the ridiculous privacy violations hit the fast lane
By the time this car is done for, I will have no option available that is not a privacy violation on wheels… jailbreaking/hacking will be my #1 purchase criteria of whatever my next car will be
I have an older Nissan Leaf in Australia. While I’m sure the car is trying to send telemetry, it only has a 3G modem, and the 3G network has been switched off for all of Australia.
If you have a newer car, it may be possible to remove the telematics fuse and ignore the related DTC.
I bet the authorities can still pick up the telemetry with satellites. Of course, they can also just see the car.
Or just remove the antenna. Bonus points it might even burn itself out!
None of this has anything to do with the car’s powertrain. Regular internal combustion engine cars are just as bad as EVs in this regard.
Nobody said it does. OP said “buy an old car without all of this shit even though it won’t be electric or suck it up”
There is a tiny number of cars available (mainly certain years of Nissan Leaf afaik) from right when batteries were getting kinda good but this stuff wasn’t all added yet
The OP would rather an EV which tend to be newer. ICE you get a lot more years to pick from, some of which are pretty simple/low tech.
ICE you get a lot more years to pick from, some of which are pretty simple/low tech.
I have a couple vehicles that fall into this category. 1980 Mercedes 240D, and a 1980 Honda XR500. Dead simple vehicles. The Benz will happily continue running with zero battery. The XR only requires a whole 3 wires to run, and since it’s kickstarted, no battery is required at all.
Ive owned a lot of old diesel Mercedes. Yes, it will run forever but you have to adjust the valves and check the chain stretch annually and no one will do this for you so you will be stained black from diesel engine oil. All the accessories will stop working including the electric windows, except the oil pressure gauge and the speedometer which doesn’t matter in a 240 anyway. The drivers seat will lean outboard and the ignition cylinder will break and leave your key stuck in ACC. The subframe bushings will go and you’ll be waggling your tail at everyone behind, you hot little diesel tart.
Ive owned a lot of old diesel Mercedes.
You. I like you. Know any good parts sources besides Pelican?
Yes, it will run forever but you have to adjust the valves and check the chain stretch annually and no one will do this for you so you will be stained black from diesel engine oil.
I’m aware. It has nearly 500k miles on the odo already. Valve adjustments are easy. Though I’m curious - does the engine need to come out to change the chain if it’s too stretched? There’s plenty of room…
All the accessories will stop working including the electric windows, except the oil pressure gauge and the speedometer which doesn’t matter in a 240 anyway.
Mine is a base model with crank windows and manual climate controls. The door locks barely work as it is; I’ll be replacing them anyway though.
The oil pressure gauge is also leaking a bit. Any tips on an electric replacement? Or should I just fix what’s in there?
Oh! Believe it or not, the AC still works. Barely. But it works.
The drivers seat will lean outboard
Too late.
and the ignition cylinder will break and leave your key stuck in ACC.
That’s good to know. What should I look for before this happens?
The subframe bushings will go and you’ll be waggling your tail at everyone behind, you hot little diesel tart.
This one seems to drive quite nice for its age and miles. Though we shall see how it does
AC in a 240 huh…you have to block off time in Outlook for onramps.
I still have my gasser W116 (also with crank windows lol) but havent ordered parts in forever. I think I used to use Peachparts sometimes? And EBay of course.
The locks and AC are probably related. Even the manual AC has vacuum pods I think. Buy a Mityvac and start chasing vacuum leaks. Probably cracked runner connectors, but if your trans shifts 1-2 hard too there’s a bigger leak.
Timing chain can be done in the car. Get the manual on CD, shows you everything.
Keep mechanical oil gauge, electric ones are junk. Bet you anything the flare fitting on the back is just loose. Screw it down, or replace the gauge with another one.
You’ll probably get a keybhang or two resolved by wiggling before your key gets stuck. Keep a light key chain and I think a little graphite lube in the lock helps, but you can preemptively just replace it with a new cylinder from Mercedes, keyed to your code. Or you used to be able to. At any rate a hung key is bad juju.
Right on, thanks!
The locks and AC are probably related. Even the manual AC has vacuum pods I think. Buy a Mityvac and start chasing vacuum leaks.
Good to know. Already got a mityvac specifically for this car. The system definitely has a few leaks, I can only get maybe two lock cycles in before it’s done for (with the locks that still work, anyway)
Probably cracked runner connectors, but if your trans shifts 1-2 hard too there’s a bigger leak.
Forgot to mention - it’s a manual transmission 😅
Oh lucky you, those are awesome.
His current car is 11 years old and you can easily find 11-years old EVs.
You’re saying OP might want to trade his 11 year old car for a 12 year old ICE.
What do you guys think? Stick to older used cars and not use an EV or look at which of the manufacturers have the least bad privacy policy?
Stick to older cars. Learn the way of the wrench. End.
Stick to older cars. Learn the way of the wrench. End.
I’m sorry to say this is nowhere near the “end”… there is only a relative small window where pre 2018 vehicles are a viable purchase for the masses (those are already at least 8 year old cars)… in 10 more years they will simply not be practical/suitable unless you happen to be a full mechanic and restorer
Automated license plate readers (both fixed abd mobile) means old cars are tracked as well.
Right, but that’s not relevant to the topic. We’re talking about the car itself collecting data and sending that to the manufacturer.
The stupidest part of this whole “always connected” BS is it doesn’t do anything for the car. I pulled and partially rebuilt the engine in my 2020 gmc and those stupid emails about the car’s health didn’t even notice. It keeps sending them to me regardless of me not paying for on star or if the engine is sitting in the garage. Made me want to find the antennae and disconnect it.
For most OEMs it’s the shark fin (older) or bump (newer) on the roof. It would probably be way easier to pull the fuse.
I’m confused here, if cars are not connected to the internet how else are they broadcasting the data? Or is it collected during maintenance and if so what do mechanics care about your sexual activity.
Edit: Reading through the comments there are 3G/4G/LTE/5G bands in the cars? Who is paying for the cellular service then?
I don’t drive nor care about cars so this isn’t my wheelhouse obviously.
if cars are not connected to the internet how else are they broadcasting the data
I can’t think of any cars that aren’t connected to the web these days. The connection is used for the built in android computer that’s in most dashboards. If it’s not android it’s likely some form of QNX. The connection is usually shared with some sort of connectivity module that’s used for things like emergency services. With connectivity comes the opportunity to harvest data.
Who is paying for the cellular service then?
Why limit ourselves to only one answer or even to the ‘data’ side of cellular service?
You! Most companies offer some sort of data plan to enable an in-vehicle wifi hotspot and/or to enable the android computer in most of them to connect to the interwebs. You might be able to buy limited scope plans for things like “navigation data only.”
You again! Even if you’re not paying explicitly for data you might subscribe to a “control some of your vehicle from your phone” thing or a safety package to do things like call EMS if you’re in an accident. Believe it or not, but some of this functionality is managed via SMS
Both of the above have been getting bundled into MSRPs recently to ‘justify’ jacking up MSRPs and to try to get users hooked.
Finally, the OEM. Nearly everyone delivers software updates over the air. Even though the OEM eats the data costs they’ll gladly pay if it reduces dealership visits.
There’s been quite a bit of news, and a few lawsuits, regarding OEMs collecting and/or selling data. I’m all for privacy, but I still do things like carry a cellphone everywhere. Vehicles shouldn’t mine data on us. Neither should infrastructure (see the surge in cities buying license plate readers), phones, facial recognition, etc. Sometimes it seems like there’s too much focus on a single area when we should really be saying, “our devices, or even devices I don’t own, should not collect data on me without my explicit consent.”
I pay for a 5g wireless number from AT&T. Not sure exactly what my Mustang is selling. But I do get warnings.
And all of a sudden data roaming costs isn’t an issue anymore ;) Who pays the mobile subscription? Or do car manufacturers pay the telco’s with a part of the data gathered …
Yes, the OEMs pay for it. They get sims that are prepaid for like 10 years.
Which shows that wholesale, data subcriptions are probably a few dollars a year.
Depends entirely on the amount of data and the bandwidth.
Phoning home every hour is a couple of KB at most and doesn’t matter how long it takes.
Streaming videos on the other hand, a lot more and you don’t want to be waiting.
Makes me wonder if there’s an easy way to get the car to start using a lot more bandwidth. Make the deal not worth it for the carriers anymore. Something that could be distributed for use on many cars, maybe used to give free internet to a wifi mesh in the vicinity of any of those cars.
well I don’t know what they collect and send but there was an article the other day about a fucking Bosch washsher sending 3.6 Gb of data a DAY
https://www.newsweek.com/homeowner-baffled-washing-machine-uses-3-6gb-internet-1862675
Since it’s in your car can you just use it to do what you want?
Like. I don’t drive. But if I did I’m yanking that SIM card out.
There have to be people hacking these, right?
Probably e-sim or heavily embedded in critical systems.
Makes sense.
Fucking horse shit.
While I’m glad I don’t drive the idea of paying $60,000 for something that does whatever the fuck it wants without my say so makes me frothing mad.
I feel the same. But it goes for so much. My wife just bought a new phone and i’m angry for hours already. All that shit you need to remove and turn off. All the configurations “help” that starts and you must walk through that turns it all back on again and reinstalls bloat. And god damnit so many shit we had turned off on the old phone shows up on the new one. All privacy settings feel like placebo toggles. I’m done with “smart” devices.
It’s possible, as long as its not an eSim or soldered to the PCB.
Since it’s in your car can you just use it to do what you want?
Yes. There is no follow-up. It is your car. End of story.
This is a lose-lose-lose.
- New cars don’t respect people’s privacy.
- New cars cost more due to the extra camera/sensors/compute/connectivity necessary for tracking.
- Less people buy new cars due to increased cost and tracking. Instead drive older, more polluting cars for longer.
The word is lose.
Also fewer, not less
Nice catch.
Maybe 3 of the 4 wheels need tightening?
So it’s a loose-loose-loose-tight situation when it should be a tight-tight-tight-tight situationYes exactly. Thanks for backing me up :)
Thanks, fixed. Sorry for being a bit too loose with spelling
Well that’s it, I’m just going to drive my 23-year-old 350Z Roadster forever. As a 90s computer geek, I would have never imagined that future technology would turn me into a classic car guy, yet here we are.
I miss the days when spyware was treated like a virus; now it’s the norm.
Hell, our 2015 Highlander doesn’t even have a connection to the outside world.
I believe it. 2015 is roughly the last model year before vehicle manufacturers started including this spyware crap en masse.
That generation Highlander (3rd gen) was made through 2019MY. No cellular connection (as far as I’m aware) through the entire production run. 4th gen has telemetry.
Late 90s and early through mid 2000s cars are gems as they are still very reliable as well as easy to maintain. Being a privacy advocate in this day and age practically requires you to get a cheap wrench set and learn the basics of maintaining one of these era vehicles.
2000s car is classic car
☠️☠️☠️ i feel old.
I know, right? I shuddered as I typed out that part of my comment. But yes, it’s a 2004 model; in 2029 it’ll be legally considered a classic where I live.
I don’t own a car and am not a fan of most modern “features”, but, I must say, I’m quite fond of adaptive cruise control. Setting a follow distance and just cruising for long drives is far better than pumping the brakes every 5 minutes for folks mucking up passing lanes or trucks attempting to overtake on lane-limited roadways. I bet if everyone used it, traffic snakes wouldn’t be such a nuisance.
I’d rather never own a car, but if I needed one, I’d be hard pressed to sacrifice privacy for that sweet adaptive cruise. Of course, network connectivity isn’t required, so perhaps there will eventually be options.
In case you actually ever need a car and want ACC:
Adaptive cruise became available in the 1998 Mercedes-Benz S-Class and in the early to mid 2000s expanded to executive cars of different marques and then later on, towards smaller/cheaper cars.
There absolutely are cars you can get that have adaptive cruise, that don’t have any network connectivity beyond the built-in cellphone (because they used to do that) or Bluetooth to connect your phone.
Thanks man. I figured there was probably a cross-section of a few cars that fit the bill. I would wonder about and need to confirm functionality. When I rent, I often receive Corollas, and I do like Toyota’s implementation. The one’s I’ve driven brake gracefully on lane switches and in finding the follow distance. I’ve yet to hit a situation, even amongst torn up construction areas, where the assists get janky.
Anecdotally, I’ve heard from others, with older cars, who won’t use the ACC because of perceived jank.
It definitely differs between implementations. I hear Distronic Plus on a W212 Mercedes (so 2009-2016 E-Class) was fairly good for its era, with smooth braking, but I’m biased because pre-touchscreen-hell Mercedes cars are something I have a soft spot for (so pretty much anything made before this decade, really - they kept touchscreens out of the equation for longer than Audi at least). On W211s you could get regular Distronic, which didn’t come to a complete stop, it was only meant for highway use. Also all these systems were optional back then, so you can’t buy cars blindly. Hell, I bought a 2019 C-Class being pretty sure it had ACC and it… did not.
I unfortunately can’t give any advice on Japanese cars, I’ve only owned a Subaru. The ACC in that was a bit janky, though it never hit anyone so it definitely worked. Most of the time. It complained about lack of sight fairly often, since it was a camera based system unlike the radar or lidar systems most seem to use.
It’s a band-aid measure that makes cars behave more like buses, trains, or any other form of transit that takes the mental strain off of the individual. Yet it still uses cars, so we all still get those sweet sweet carbon emissions and ridiculously outsized infrastructure degradation. It’s a step in the right direction but we’re still on the wrong path.
I fully agree with that. Well designed public transport, human-powered local transit (bikes!), and more densely packed infrastructure for human populations are the way to go with respect to the global predicament. This is a big part of the reason I refuse to own a car. But, I can appreciate some features added to the old ways, while gritting my teeth.
We need more development of open source cars
Interesting point you bring up.
The inner workings and overall principles of the internal combustion engine are well-documented. There are also open-source engine controllers - Speeduino comes to mind. Electric motors and their controllers are also well-documented.
People build kit cars all the time, enough that many U.S. states actually have specific standards that a kit car must meet in order to be road legal; hilariously, these standards are often far lower than vehicles manufactured by an OEM.
We don’t need a foss ice to have open source cars. Even setting ice aside, as long as the BOM includes easy to find, off the shelf components, its still a Foss project
I love the idea but the cynic in me sees the Mountains of hurdles, starting with the gigantic piles of money you need for development and certification.
I’d love this, but I doubt that it is ever going to happen. Open-Source-Hardware is not as widely spread as open source software which is also still a niche. The big difference is that you can easily develop OSS on your own in your free time, but with hardware its a lot more difficult. And then think of all the parts necessary to build a car and then again all the certifications to actually get it on the street and after that the question of liability in case of accidents…
I think the real obstacle isn’t even the regulations but the safety systems. The various US DMVs can comprehend things like scratch-built or kit cars, but the level of engineering to make a thing that can even sometimes decelerate a person from like 60 to 0 without killing them more with exploding airbags is several levels above that required to make a thing with wheels that drives forward.
So you can build and probably even drive a car from plans you got off Github, but if you crash it it will kill you.
I’d be happy to have a car that goes max 50 kph
The need is an OSS ecu that drops in present cars.
Speeduino is a thing. Not exactly drop-in, but it’s a start.
All it takes is one company to do open hardware. Then all the other companies will use it, because its cheaper for them without having to do the initial r&d.
If it’s licensed properly, then all subsequent customizations by these other companies will get shared, so the project just gets better and better with time.
You mean… Trains?..
FWIW I did both a GDPR request and a Lexus Nexus data request on both of my Mercedes and they had zero info on me. My buddy did the same and same results. I’m not sure they are collecting any data even though they say they may, or they’re actually honoring the opt out setting. Either way I’m not worried about my Mercedes cars. My brother requested his data and his Toyota and Lexus had a LOT of info on him.
or they’re actually honoring the opt out setting
yeah right. “Hey! He used opt-out, don’t tell him shit on what we know”. Also out-out should be illegal. All should be opt-in
I don’t disagree, but the results are the results. So for whatever reason, they don’t have my information. Of course I’d prefer a traditional approach to data collection from a car (none).
Bike
whenever possible, yes… unfortunately, it is not always possible
List of automotive connectivity module providers: https://www.evbusiness.net/ev-directory/automotive-lte-5g-module-manufacturers/
Find which one your car has. Then see if you can find a repair manual with schematics. Find where the cell antenna connects. Non-destructively disconnect it. This way your telematics won’t be affected. It will just look like you’re always in a cell dead-zone.
Edit: don’t do this if it’s a lease, a rental, or there’s a loan on the vehicle. If you own it outright and it doesn’t void the warranty, go nuts.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the sensors store data locally and then get uploaded to the Internet when you take it to a mechanic, who plugs your car into an internet-connected computer.
You have to neuter the sensors, not just the cell antenna
Source?
A lot of cars do have EDRs (Event Data Recorders), but they only store certain events related to crashes so they can go back and establishes what was going on before an accident.
AFAIK, regular telemetry going out the cell is much more extensive, continuous, and realtime.
Its not the sensors that store the data, the ecu/pcm/bcm do that. Yes, there is essentially a black box function in most modern-ish cars that logs the last X minutes of driving. It likely also has an “event recorder” for when certain conditions are triggered.
I know for a fact that most have reflash counters or log when the ecu was written to last. That is more to do with tuning or warranty stuff but still.
Of course, but the computer won’t store any sensitive data if you neuter the sensors.
Yeah that isn’t an option unless you want the dash to light up like a Christmas tree, your abs not to work, the stability/traction control to freak out and disable your accellerator, or cause an airbag fault, or cause the seatbelt pretensioners to fault.
You’re saying the airbag will deeply if I feed it a black feed from the cameras and silence from the microphones? Huh.
No, I am saying if you disable or tweak the sensors that feed the onboard telemetry system on a modern car which include sensors for the accelerator pedal position, vehicle speed, individual wheel speed sensors (for abs, traction control, and stability control), the car will probably freak out and enter limp mode.
If you screw with the stability or traction sensors, they can cause the airbags to not trigger properly or predictably. Remember, there are basic impact sensors for airbags but there are also angle sensors and accelerometers for rollover detection now. If you disable any of that, the car will not work properly.
Yeah, and I’m saying that those aren’t the sensors that we need to neuter. Namely the surveillance sensors are cameras, microphones, and seat sensors.
Basically all the things that they use to sell your sexual habits to the highest bidder.
Would it be possible/easier to slap a Faraday cage around it instead of disconnecting anything?
In most cars, there is an integrated antenna for all wireless signals. For example:
- Audi: https://parts.audiusa.com/p/Audi__/Mobile-Phone-Antenna/78750936/3G9035534.html
- GM: https://parts.gmparts.com/product/gm-genuine-parts-mobile-telephone-and-telematics-antenna-22964579
- VW: https://parts.vw.com/p/Volkswagen__Jetta/Mobile-Phone-Antenna/78750936/3G9035534.html
These are often mounted behind non-metallic surfaces (plastic bumper, spoiler, etc). You can try to cover them up, but it means you’ll lose all the other antenna functions.
Disconnecting at the other end can only take out cellular without affecting wifi, Bluetooth, etc.
Mind you, it’s not easy. There’s a wiring harness with a waterproof connector that eventually goes into the cell modem. You’ll have to find the right antenna pin and disrupt the signal. Different for every make/model and not possible without proper schematics.
I bought a used Chevy bolt EV, for now I’ve pulled the onstar system fuse which kills the telemetry and GPS+cell antenna. No tracking with no power, it’s my car and my battery so I decide what gets my power.
I’m not interested in letting any of these companies screw me over behind my back regardless of who is “less evil,” but I’ve gotten so used to the convenience of EVs that I won’t do without one.
I use my phone for navigation and music/podcasts and that still works just fine.
Might at some point look at a more sophisticated way of doing this like removing just the onstar module or terminating its antenna, but for now it’s fine.
I’ve pulled the onstar system fuse which kills the telemetry and GPS+cell antenna
If that is possible in a european car that would be exactly what I’d want to do as well :D
It’s almost certainly possible, but it might void your warranty/be illegal, depending on your jurisdiction (and qualifications- it’s probably not illegal if you’re a licensed mechanic, but might violate your employment contract). Even if it’s not illegal, it might affect your liability insurance coverage.
I’m not saying you shouldn’t do it, but make sure you know what the potential consequences are.
I bought a used 2017 Bolt a few months ago and I love it. It is the most practical car I’ve ever owned and it’s nice to drive.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the sensors store data locally and then get uploaded to the Internet when you take it to a mechanic, who plugs your car into an internet-connected computer
Ehhh that’s a bit of a blanket statement that applies to dealers: I promise you my indie guy who does my tires and inspections will not be plugging anything in. Everything else I will be doing anyways.
He would be a bad mechanic if he didn’t plug it in to get a readout of the computer on your car during routine maintenance
He would be an exceptional mechanic if he made sure to only do this on an airgapped machine.
That’s simply not how it works. The only “computer” system that is required and widely used is still obd-II which has been around since 1996. Thats all the independent shops diagnose with whether the car is 1999 or rolled off the lot yesterday. Any other computer system on board is dealer specific and a specialised system NOT accessed during regular work. Quit spamming misinformation.
It’s not required. These surveillance systems and data profiteering are very optional.
this is just blind undirected cynicism. please show your work. I hate our surveillance state too, but if you misidentify the problem you will push away people who understand the situation from your cause.
Literally read the article that you’re commenting on
Your assumption about how datalogging works is incorrect.
In short, sensors almost never store local data which doesn’t even matter if those sensors are depowered. There is absolutely nothing to be afraid of here.
So yeah, sensors do not locally store data except in very rare and high-cost cases not found in basically any consumer electronics. There needs to be a datalogger or handoff to a datalogger of some variety. While the ECU or MCU of a vehicle logs data, there’s not a permanent memory of every action you’ve done with the car because it literally doesn’t have enough memory. Doubly so if some of the sensors such as GPS are physically unplugged or depowered as in my case.
So, no amount of malicious action from a dealer would extract location or even more basic data from a car. The only thing they’d see are the basics of the ECU or MCU which has been common for every car produced since OBD2 became… a thing.
I’ll also add that an easy solution to this is not to go to a corporate dealer (all Chevy dealers are shit anyway to be fair). While the independent mechanic might have to buy proprietary diagnostics from the manufacturer, they aren’t going to re-enable systems like GPS or telemetry if you tell them not to because they care about you coming back and thus have an incentive not to fuck you over.
Sounds like you’ve been out of the industry for a while.
The sensors don’t store the data. The storage does. How do you think the entertainment system remembers your music history? Its stores it. And uploads it. And they sell it.
So your car won’t track you but your phone will. OK.
That was my first thought too, but some people are moving to more privacy focused phones like grapheneOS, and other ROMs, or even Linux phones.
Besides, reduction in the number of people tracking you is still a positive thing.
I have a 2014 Chevy volt. Not a full EV, but used ones are affordable and the 3g cell modem no longer works.
We get 30-38 miles per charge depending on the outside temperature which covers most of our day to day driving. It will charge from a regular wall outlet (120v at 8 amps) in 12 hours. The ICE engine gets an oil change every 2 years since it gets rarely used.
