Even with NA (low/non-alcoholic) beverages, it’d be nice to have third places that don’t come with an obligation to spend money.
To be clear, I’m not asking for places that ban spending money, but there are third places like parks (eg NYC Central Park) that are destinations in their own right, but one can also spend money there, such as buying stuff and having a picnic on the grass, or bringing board games and meeting up with friends. Or strolling the grounds astride rental e-bikes. Or free yoga.
Where there’s an open space, people make use of it. But we don’t really have much of that in the USA, that isn’t tied up as a parking lot, an open-space preserve (where people shouldn’t tred upon to protect wildlife), or are beyond reasonable distances (eg BLM land in the middle of Nevada).
Are you talking more indoors as there are a lot of outdoor stuff but only the library and churches are indoor stuff I can think of and in the one case you need to keep quiet so not great for socializing and in the other you have to follow wierd precepts or whatnot.
Also, in places with significant winters (including Northern Europe) parks aren’t an option in winter.
Northern Europe seems like the kind of place that would realize this is a problem and invent some kind of community building which was open in the winter and had a shared kitchen, a stock of board games, a court for indoor sports, etc. That’s certainly not going to happen in the US.
I get it. I guess you’ve never been to the Y. Today, the YMCA’s global network recognizes its Christian heritage, but pretty much every national and local branch is secular or interfaith in operation.
It’s so non religious now that you can easily find evidence with a quick search…
Everywhere I’ve lived in the US has had plenty of public parks. As a teenager I’d hang out with my friends in them. Hell I’ve been to big community picnics at a park.
The thing is it’s easier to hang out online all the time and people aren’t looking to socialize at parks when there aren’t events.
I’d say the qualities of the average American park leaves much to be desired, when compared to NYC Central Park, San Diego’s Balboa Park, or SF’s Presidio.
In suburban areas, the municipal park tends to be a monoculture of grass plus maybe a playground, a parking lot, and if lucky, a usable bathroom. Regional parks are often nicer, with amenities like pickleball courts or a BMX park, though asking for benches (not rocks or concrete verges, but actually bench seats) and shade might be a stretch.
My point is that the USA has fewer parks and public squares than it ought to. I don’t mean just a place to go jogging or to push a stroller along, but a proper third space where people actively spend time and create value at. Where street vendors congregate because that’s also where people congregate. A place that people – voluntarily, not by necessity, eg a train station but not to catch a train – would like to be. A destination in its own right, where even tourists will drop by and take in the air, the sights, and the social interactions.
Meanwhile, some parts of the USA actively sabotage their parks, replacing normal park furniture with versions that are actively hostile to homeless people, while alienating anyone that just wants an armrest as they sit down. Other municipalities spend their Parks & Rec funds on the bare minimum of parks, lots that are impractically tiny. Why? Because a public park can be used to exclude registered sex offenders from a neighborhood, leading to the ludicrous situation where whole cities are an exclusion zone. Regardless of one’s position on how to punish sex offenses, the denial of housing and basic existence is, at best, counterproductive.
So I reiterate: the USA might have a good quantity of parks, but not exactly good quality of parks. People will socialize online unless they are given actual options to socialize elsewhere. And IRL options would build value locally, whereas online communities only accrue to the benefit of the platforms (eg Facebook, WhatsApp) they run on.
Depending on the community near you, Unitarian Universalists sometimes have basically that. I’ve been an atheist since I was four, but I have no problem with other people being religious and it was perfect for me. If you’re the type to be annoyed by people talking about the universe in a way that suggests the supernatural, you might not want to deal with even the UU’s very mild language. When I went as a kid, we learned about volcanoes in Sunday School, as a gauge for how religious they are.
Or if you want evil church without religion, can I interest you in crossfit?
I jokingly asked my wife if she’d go to basically church but reading from Marx instead and despite neither of us being marxists it actually sounded like something we’d go to
But also seriously look into if you have a local community center or library and what events they host. Stuff like that often struggles to find attendees
I do think there’s a special thing about church that is this bigger than yourself experience that you share with your community that just isn’t quite replicated in events like art clubs or whatever, volunteering is probably closer
I do think there’s a special thing about church that is this bigger than yourself experience
I’m pretty sure that’s only the case if you’re a believer. And, in general, people who aren’t believers don’t go to church, so you’re selecting for a group of people who want to believe in something bigger than themselves.
But that’s the feeling that really bound people together when church was better attended, and that’s the feeling that’s so difficult to recreate in a secular way. Without that feeling it’s just a social club. Which isn’t bad thing, but it’s not “church without religion”.
It’s the fact that church comes with an actual presupposition that it isn’t optional, while de facto being optional.
Going to church (in contexts where denomination shopping isn’t a thing at least) means going to a place where a person is not there to validate your particular perspective but instead often to tell you and everyone else in the group to do better, publicly, not because they’re better but because they appeal to higher principles whose correctness is taken for granted buly the congregation.
See also: the absolute brain lottery winners on the internet bitching that the pope isn’t a real catholic for telling them they’re bad catholics (arguably bad christians in general, definitely bad people) for dehumanising poor people and immigrants legal and illegal.
I’m far from a catholic (that is, I’m actually a lapsed catholic if you ask the church, but I was never a believer, just born into it) but there just isn’t a space where you’re going to participate, respect the ethics and morals, still fall short of them, be chastised, and be forgiven, that doesn’t involve some religious aspect.
It’s just an example- I’m not saying it’s the only alternative. Although the declining church attendance possibly causes people to seek third places (although I believe the declining church attendance is that it’s more socially acceptable to be a non believer these days. Would rather if someone come to Church that they’d be at least open to believing)
Even if you find one where there isn’t an emphasis on tithes or donation, that’s not exactly a space set up for public socializing. It’s a private space, used by a dedicated and defined group, for socializing within that group. Outsiders may be welcome, but they’re only welcome within that structure.
Depends, lots of churches welcome lay members of the community to the ancillary activities they organise. Catholic churches in my experience are much more embedded in their communities in southern europe regardless of the status of the people participating.
My father has been lapsed for 40+ years, never shows up for church and doesn’t participate in any of the religious aspects but he still runs free arts and crafts workshops in the parish buildings, for the local kids whether they’re part of the congregation or not.
Public libraries are great third places. Larger ones often have classes, groups, and social clubs. And you’ll meet like-minded people just by becoming a regular.
Depending on the gym, some are a lot more third-spacey than others. I’ve been to a smaller gym where people just hang around after their workouts to socialize, with occasional impromptu dinner outings when the gym closed for the night. I miss that place. You still meet people at bigger commercial gyms, but it’s not the same.
On the reals, I have an atheist friend who started volunteering at a church literally for this reason. I totally understood where he was coming from. If I didn’t have a family and wanted a way to spend time with other people, I’d probably do the same.
I wish we could have third places that don’t involve fucking up your body.
Even with NA (low/non-alcoholic) beverages, it’d be nice to have third places that don’t come with an obligation to spend money.
To be clear, I’m not asking for places that ban spending money, but there are third places like parks (eg NYC Central Park) that are destinations in their own right, but one can also spend money there, such as buying stuff and having a picnic on the grass, or bringing board games and meeting up with friends. Or strolling the grounds astride rental e-bikes. Or free yoga.
Where there’s an open space, people make use of it. But we don’t really have much of that in the USA, that isn’t tied up as a parking lot, an open-space preserve (where people shouldn’t tred upon to protect wildlife), or are beyond reasonable distances (eg BLM land in the middle of Nevada).
Are you talking more indoors as there are a lot of outdoor stuff but only the library and churches are indoor stuff I can think of and in the one case you need to keep quiet so not great for socializing and in the other you have to follow wierd precepts or whatnot.
Parks and libraries are really nice. Most other third places seem to want you to spend money, that’s my experience here in northern Europe anyway.
Also, in places with significant winters (including Northern Europe) parks aren’t an option in winter.
Northern Europe seems like the kind of place that would realize this is a problem and invent some kind of community building which was open in the winter and had a shared kitchen, a stock of board games, a court for indoor sports, etc. That’s certainly not going to happen in the US.
You mean like the YMCA?
Well, definitely not a Christian association.
Nothing religious about the Y anymore. For many years
https://www.ymca.org/who-we-are
I get it. I guess you’ve never been to the Y. Today, the YMCA’s global network recognizes its Christian heritage, but pretty much every national and local branch is secular or interfaith in operation.
It’s so non religious now that you can easily find evidence with a quick search…
Everywhere I’ve lived in the US has had plenty of public parks. As a teenager I’d hang out with my friends in them. Hell I’ve been to big community picnics at a park.
The thing is it’s easier to hang out online all the time and people aren’t looking to socialize at parks when there aren’t events.
The problem is in parks everyone is too spread out to talk to strangers. There needs to be a park with a bar to bring everyone together.
I’d say the qualities of the average American park leaves much to be desired, when compared to NYC Central Park, San Diego’s Balboa Park, or SF’s Presidio.
In suburban areas, the municipal park tends to be a monoculture of grass plus maybe a playground, a parking lot, and if lucky, a usable bathroom. Regional parks are often nicer, with amenities like pickleball courts or a BMX park, though asking for benches (not rocks or concrete verges, but actually bench seats) and shade might be a stretch.
My point is that the USA has fewer parks and public squares than it ought to. I don’t mean just a place to go jogging or to push a stroller along, but a proper third space where people actively spend time and create value at. Where street vendors congregate because that’s also where people congregate. A place that people – voluntarily, not by necessity, eg a train station but not to catch a train – would like to be. A destination in its own right, where even tourists will drop by and take in the air, the sights, and the social interactions.
Meanwhile, some parts of the USA actively sabotage their parks, replacing normal park furniture with versions that are actively hostile to homeless people, while alienating anyone that just wants an armrest as they sit down. Other municipalities spend their Parks & Rec funds on the bare minimum of parks, lots that are impractically tiny. Why? Because a public park can be used to exclude registered sex offenders from a neighborhood, leading to the ludicrous situation where whole cities are an exclusion zone. Regardless of one’s position on how to punish sex offenses, the denial of housing and basic existence is, at best, counterproductive.
So I reiterate: the USA might have a good quantity of parks, but not exactly good quality of parks. People will socialize online unless they are given actual options to socialize elsewhere. And IRL options would build value locally, whereas online communities only accrue to the benefit of the platforms (eg Facebook, WhatsApp) they run on.
Church
We need church without religion
Depending on the community near you, Unitarian Universalists sometimes have basically that. I’ve been an atheist since I was four, but I have no problem with other people being religious and it was perfect for me. If you’re the type to be annoyed by people talking about the universe in a way that suggests the supernatural, you might not want to deal with even the UU’s very mild language. When I went as a kid, we learned about volcanoes in Sunday School, as a gauge for how religious they are.
Or if you want evil church without religion, can I interest you in crossfit?
I jokingly asked my wife if she’d go to basically church but reading from Marx instead and despite neither of us being marxists it actually sounded like something we’d go to
But also seriously look into if you have a local community center or library and what events they host. Stuff like that often struggles to find attendees
I do think there’s a special thing about church that is this bigger than yourself experience that you share with your community that just isn’t quite replicated in events like art clubs or whatever, volunteering is probably closer
I’m pretty sure that’s only the case if you’re a believer. And, in general, people who aren’t believers don’t go to church, so you’re selecting for a group of people who want to believe in something bigger than themselves.
But that’s the feeling that really bound people together when church was better attended, and that’s the feeling that’s so difficult to recreate in a secular way. Without that feeling it’s just a social club. Which isn’t bad thing, but it’s not “church without religion”.
It’s the fact that church comes with an actual presupposition that it isn’t optional, while de facto being optional.
Going to church (in contexts where denomination shopping isn’t a thing at least) means going to a place where a person is not there to validate your particular perspective but instead often to tell you and everyone else in the group to do better, publicly, not because they’re better but because they appeal to higher principles whose correctness is taken for granted buly the congregation.
See also: the absolute brain lottery winners on the internet bitching that the pope isn’t a real catholic for telling them they’re bad catholics (arguably bad christians in general, definitely bad people) for dehumanising poor people and immigrants legal and illegal.
I’m far from a catholic (that is, I’m actually a lapsed catholic if you ask the church, but I was never a believer, just born into it) but there just isn’t a space where you’re going to participate, respect the ethics and morals, still fall short of them, be chastised, and be forgiven, that doesn’t involve some religious aspect.
There are several non religious ethical groups to spend time with.
I tried to get you links but I ran out of time before having to do other responsibilities.
That’s like a car without wheels
We have those. They’re called boats.
That’s not a car
Correct, its a boat. If it had wheels, then it would be a car.
If you throw a car without wheels into the water it probably won’t float
People downvote, but you’re not wrong and it’s probably the most common example in rural areas
It’s just an example- I’m not saying it’s the only alternative. Although the declining church attendance possibly causes people to seek third places (although I believe the declining church attendance is that it’s more socially acceptable to be a non believer these days. Would rather if someone come to Church that they’d be at least open to believing)
Even if you find one where there isn’t an emphasis on tithes or donation, that’s not exactly a space set up for public socializing. It’s a private space, used by a dedicated and defined group, for socializing within that group. Outsiders may be welcome, but they’re only welcome within that structure.
Depends, lots of churches welcome lay members of the community to the ancillary activities they organise. Catholic churches in my experience are much more embedded in their communities in southern europe regardless of the status of the people participating.
My father has been lapsed for 40+ years, never shows up for church and doesn’t participate in any of the religious aspects but he still runs free arts and crafts workshops in the parish buildings, for the local kids whether they’re part of the congregation or not.
Aye, was just an example.
Okay, it was a bad one.
Okay then. Forest heroin den.
A publicly accessible forest is an excellent example of a third space, well done.
It used to be the Mall. It was always a place to hang out, meet friends, window shop, eat, see a movie, etc.
When I was a kid, the local mall even included the local library. I thought that was a great idea, but I never saw another mall with a library.
Public libraries are great third places. Larger ones often have classes, groups, and social clubs. And you’ll meet like-minded people just by becoming a regular.
Hacker/makerspace.Coffee/tea shops. Library. Community Center.
Honestly I’m cool with fucking up my body to have a good time, I just wish it didn’t cost me $200 for the privelege.
Check your library. They do all kinds of activities.
I should tbh
Your local gym? CrossFit box? Football/soccer club? Community centre? Library? Outdoor? Scouts?
Community center and library sure, I wouldn’t really consider the rest a third space.
Depending on the gym, some are a lot more third-spacey than others. I’ve been to a smaller gym where people just hang around after their workouts to socialize, with occasional impromptu dinner outings when the gym closed for the night. I miss that place. You still meet people at bigger commercial gyms, but it’s not the same.
For the non religious, that’s where clubs like the Shriners, or Lions come in. Social clubs that don’t revolve entirely around alcohol
May I introduce you to your lord and savior Jesus Christ? He’s got a third place for you.
N o
😂
On the reals, I have an atheist friend who started volunteering at a church literally for this reason. I totally understood where he was coming from. If I didn’t have a family and wanted a way to spend time with other people, I’d probably do the same.
Yeah I mean I have family who’ve worked at them before, I get it but I can’t support something I feel causes so much harm