In Portugal the liberal party is a right-wing party ± socially progressive. But economically very right wing. So a liberal in Portugal is perceived as someone probably well off and urban.
It all depends who you ask. There are no fixed definitions, not globally. That’s why policies are important points for grounding.
In the US, they use “liberal” to mean “left-wing” (and their left wing is also most countries’ right-wing or centre).
Liberalism actually refers to, essentially, the ideology of the bourgeoisie: of individual freedoms, markets, inalienable property rights, etc. In most countries with a political party that calls itself “liberal”, these parties will be centre to right wing and generally support a “freer” market as well as some social freedoms.
American liberals think they’re left wing. European liberals understand they are basically conservatives.
Nah man. The democratic party is billed as left wing. Some Americans believe that. A ton of us know that is false and are actually left wing but don’t have great options to vote for.
You’re either a liberal or left wing you can’t be both
When I say I’m a liberal I take it seriously by definition. And I think conservatives do too because when you see someone on social media with a nose ring and dyed hair someone will call “a dumbass liberal” and all I can think of is “yes, they’re using their free will to dye their hair whatever color they want. How is that bad”?
It’s wild to me that almost everyone seems to be mixing up classical liberalism and neoliberalism to
asome significant degree; two wildly different paradigms only related by name. The former is defined by the freedom of the individual, the latter by the freedom of markets. The conflation of the two is wildly good marketing from the neolibs.Liberal philosophers John Stuart Mill and Harriet Taylor Mill were massive advocates for the abolition of slavery, women’s equality, free speach, worker cooperatives, inheritance tax, etc.
The father of neolibrolism Milton Friedman believed in unfettered free markets, minimal government, deregulation and monetarism (influencing the economy through the supply of money)
It’s so frustrating. Neoliberalism is explicitly a postliberal ideology.
I’m started to become convinced that there is a coordinated effort to misdefine the term liberal among the political left in order to divide us.
I see supposed progressives dedicating significant amounts of time demonizing liberals (when they mean neoliberal), despite the fact that they would mostly agree on policy if that was the topic of conversation.
Enacting progressive taxation, punishing white collar crime, establishing strong environmental protections, establishing a strong social safety net, ensuring high quality universal healthcare, enforcing anti-trust legislation, and enacting electoral finance reforms are all things that liberals support… but instead they are often shouted down by progressives online for being status quo capitalists?
We’re fighting the rise of literal fascists right now, but instead of joining forces we keep arguing about labels among people we agree with.
Imperfect allies are still allies. We need unification against the ultra wealthy.
Enacting progressive taxation, punishing white collar crime, establishing strong environmental protections, establishing a strong social safety net, ensuring high quality universal healthcare, enforcing anti-trust legislation, and enacting electoral finance reforms are all things that liberals support
Those are all things that the liberals of old supported. But the parties that call themselves “liberal” today are usually strictly neoliberal. So that’s what people have come to associate with the term.
Which parties call themselves liberal, but are actually neoliberal?
In Germany, where I’m from, FDP (“die Liberalen”) is a prime example. They are notorious for campaigning on civil liberties issues and then, once in government, dropping most or all of them in favor of radical deregulation and tax gifts for rich people.
Yes.
In the US it seems to be conservative capitalist neoliberals probably in the democratic party who are called liberals.
In the EU it seems to be your description of emancipation, equality, individual freedoms and societal security funded by taxes, or just any progressive view. Basically leftist (divided between if capitalism can be reformed or needs to be abolished) takes who are liberals.
Liberal (US): a moderate conservative.
Liberal (EU): a moderate right libertarian.
For clarity: The Democratic party in the US, based on their talking points, is considered right wing in much of the world. The conservative party in the US, based on their talking points, is considered far right wing in much of the world.
In the US: We have “actual” left wing politicians, who frequently are shouted down and forced to align themselves with Democrats to get any sort of movement.
The two party system works to keep those two teams going.
To most Americans (including myself before reading into it due to Lemmy) Liberal is simply a synonym of ‘left-wing’ and has no distinction at all from that and other terms like ‘leftist’, ‘progressive’, etc. All of these terms mean exactly “not conservative” - mostly in a social sense.
My (weak) understanding is that outside the US, Liberal is a (mostly) economic position - specifically one supportive of capitalism, which both major parties in the US are. (With slight policy differences.)
My (weak) understanding is that outside the US, Liberal is a (mostly) economic position - specifically one supportive of capitalism, which both major parties in the US are. (With slight policy differences.)
As a European: this precisely. There are slight variations in terminology: liberalism, libertarian, neoliberal… but nobody reads that as “left”. The “liberty” hinted at is always that of the market.
In my country the liberals are about both economic and social liberty. They want both gay and heterosexual people to have the freedom to pay for healthcare and education, which currently are free. The conservatives want at least healthcare and potentially education to remain free, but also want only white cishet people to exist. Socdems luckily exist to balance out the idiots.
Back in the 60s, Phil Ochs described a liberal as “10 degrees to the left of center in good times and 10 degrees to the right if it affects them personally”.
I agree that most people understand it to mean anyone left of center, but the meaning of a weak or disingenuous leftist who often sides with the enemies of the left goes back a while.
American conservatives have capitalized on denigrating the word “liberal” so thoroughly that using it in a remotely similar vein makes us ignore you immediately.
Interesting. Hadn’t heard that one. (Or the sentiment)
On a side note, these days I feel like something affecting someone personally means it’s more likely to move them left - see leopards and faces.
(Unless it’s a tax or regulation, perhaps that’s what Phil was thinking of)
To be more specific on the capitalism front, liberals generally support a well-regulated market which also has safety nets like welfare. As opposed to positions like neoliberalism which supports As opposed to positions like neoliberalism, which supports laissez-faire markets and opposes welfare.
It drives me nuts when people treat liberals and neoliberals as the same thing.
positions like neoliberalism, which supports laissez-faire markets and opposes welfare.
Neoliberalism certainly supports welfare, ie every single corporate bailout since the 1980s. Neoliberalism is the natural conclusion to liberal democracies that fail to address class stratification properly and allow massive imbalance of power to grow so large the whole system becomes irreparable.
I understand what you’re saying and the political point you’re making but welfare, in political terms, is defined as state intervention via public institutions to ensure the economic and social wellbeing of its citizens.
Liberalism in America refers to social liberalism. IE: justice, government management of social services(health, education, welfare, infrastructure). In this scenario, the government looking after its citizens.
Liberalism in the rest of the world refers to Neoliberalism. IE: capitalism on a pedestal, privatization of public services, limited government intervention in all areas(business, labour, environment, health, education). In this scenario, private business and “the free market” determine what is and isn’t good(IE profit is the greatest good).
Liberal in the UK definitely doesn’t mean neoliberal
Not entirely no.
"
Scholars primarily use the term to refer to classical liberalism.
British liberalism is now organised between two schools;
- the social liberalism of the Liberal Democrats (member LI, ALDE) and their counterpart the Alliance Party of Northern Ireland (member LI, ALDE),
- and the classical liberalism of the Conservative Party which was adopted in the late 1970s by the late former Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher " - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_in_the_United_Kingdom
Neoliberalism is a more contemporary version of classical liberalism
That over-simplifies the definition of neoliberalism, and the contested nature of definitions of that term. It also ignores the differences between the liberalism that Thatcher claimed and her actual policies (although I’m not claiming that Hayak, for example, wasn’t part of the then-current definition of liberalism), particularly her social policies.
I promise you, despite what Wikipedia claims, if a British newspaper were to refer to a liberal politician, they would not include Thatcher and Johnson.
Firstly, the social aspect of the term liberalism is more prominant than the economic. And secondly, it would be rare in the modern age to see it applied to Hayakian economics as opposed to Keyensian.
Neoliberalism, as a term, is to liberalism as Libertarian is to liberalism. They share a root and you can point to similarites, but once you scratch beneath the surface they aren’t all that similar and have important areas of opposition.
Nope. Some political parties use it as neoliberal but ordinary people don’t.
Your whole political spectrum is from right to far right to us. There is no liberal or left at all.
And they still find so much to bicker about. I wonder how European coalition governments look like to Americans.
Liberal is right wing
Okay now, this is surprising. Either your statement is way off or the definition of liberal is wildly different between US and EU.
But liberal is definitely not right but center between left and right. But as said, maybe that’s the European view.
If you think that, then you don’t know much about our political spectrum. Or—more likely—you’re just trolling.
Wow. First, no I’m not trolling. But we have a bit more open view in Europe. You’ve just got all corporate control with a lot of propaganda in the US. If you’re open to it, I invite you on research on countries with more than 2 (and even almost identical) parties and without backing of the rich.
Yes I might be off about your spectrum, but the last deeper research I read was that over the decades your two right wing options narrowed down even more and by now they’re indistinguishable (for the common folk. Of course it would be better not to have trump but you have more political issues than that).
Considering our political spectrum includes both democratic socialists that model their politics off of European leftist examples and actual communists who think China is a good model to follow, I’m pretty sure you don’t know what you’re talking about.
OK name one party on the left that you could vote and would count?
I am only aware of dem and rep.
And then compare it to 5 parties like this https://www.bundestag.de/parlament/plenum/sitzverteilung
So now I gave examples. Show me where you think there’s more than one or two parties being on the right side.
Wait, let me rephrase that. Please help me understand what I am missing, honestly. There’s just two parties who have any chance.
Political spectrum isn’t just about political parties. The two parties in the US don’t represent the full spectrum of political opinions in the country. If you want to understand that, you’re going to have to dig deeper.
OK, I think we don’t understand each other because the spectrum is not represented (to the voter) at all in the US and you can only choose between two parties on the right. If you ignore that it’s not me needing research.
Look. I linked you the German parliament. We vote parties in there and they’re actively participating in the law making process there. They’re on our voting ballots.
Please tell me how you can vote for anyone else than dem and rep in the US. That was what I was talking about. Since (afaik) that is not possible you only have access to get a right party into the legislation.
And also to be clear this is not about looking down on the US. We have other huge issues here, too.
If you vote Democratic, you’re getting a far better version of leftist politics than the GOP. No, it’s not ideal leftist politics, because Dems are still beholden to US megacorps, and that is definitely a problem. But you can’t assert that because voting options are limited, political will is restricted to those options. The U.S. is undergoing a major political problem right now, which may well result in the dissolution of both parties and a broader multi-party system. You can’t just point to a country’s political parties and say, “well, they have only those two options, so they’re locked in forever, and those two options represent the entire country’s political will.” That’s ridiculous. There’s much to be said about the rise of far right politics in Europe right now, but you wouldn’t endorse opinions that the EU is trapped between far-left and far-right politics, would you? No, most people have views that register in-between. The same is true in America. We’re not so different from you. Stop pretending otherwise. We’re all human and we’re all part of a global civilization.
The common denominator of liberalism is the core liberal philosophy of universal individual rights & liberties, consent of the governed (governments exist for the people who have a right to change & replace them, & authority is legitimate only when it protects those liberties), political & legal equality. US modern liberalism primarily refers to social liberalism & progressivism. Liberalism elsewhere often refers to classical liberalism which more closely corresponds to US libertarianism.
American versus European usage of liberalism
Colloquially, liberalism is used differently, in its primary use in different countries. In the United States the general term liberalism almost always refers to modern liberalism. There are some parties in Europe which nominally appeal to social liberalism, with the Beveridge Group faction within the Liberal Democrats, the Danish Social Liberal Party, the Democratic Movement, and the Italian Republican Party. One of the greatest contrasts is between the usage in the United States and usage in Europe and Latin America. According to Arthur M. Schlesinger Jr. (writing in 1956), “[l]iberalism in the American usage has little in common with the word as used in the politics of any European country, save possibly Britain.” In Europe, liberalism usually means what is sometimes called classical liberalism, a commitment to limited government, laissez-faire economics. This classical liberalism sometimes more closely corresponds to the American definition of libertarianism, although some distinguish between classical liberalism and libertarianism.
What constitutes a liberal party is highly debatable. In the list below, it is defined as a political party that adheres to the basic principles of political liberalism. This is a broad political current, including left-wing, centrist and right-wing elements. All liberal parties emphasise individual rights, but they differ in their opinion on an active role for the state. This list includes parties of different character, ranging from classical liberalism to social liberalism, conservative liberalism to national liberalism.
Several conservative and/or Christian-democratic parties, such as the British Conservative Party, Germany’s Christian Democratic Union and Spain’s People’s Party, are also considered to be neoliberal leaning or have strong liberal conservative and/or classical liberal factions, whereas some conservative parties, such as Poland’s Law and Justice and Hungary’s Fidesz, favour more state intervention but also support free-market solutions. Conversely, some social-democratic parties, such as the British Labour Party and the Italian Democratic Party, include liberal elements. Social liberalism and social conservatism are not mutually exclusive, and some parties espouse socially liberal economic policies, while maintaining more socially conservative or traditionalist views on society: examples of this include Finland’s Centre Party (see also Nordic agrarian parties) and Ireland’s Fianna Fáil, both members of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe Party (ALDE Party). In the United States, the two major political forces, the Republican Party and the Democratic Party, are to some extent, liberal (see Liberalism in the United States and Modern liberalism in the United States).
⁝
Not all the parties using the “Liberal” or “Freedom” labels are actually liberal. Moreover, some parties, such as the Freedom Party of Austria, were originally liberal, but have since tilted toward a populist direction and abandoned most of the tenets of liberalism. Finally, some parties, such as the United States Republican Party, Australia’s Liberal Party or Norway’s Progress Party are liberal mainly from an economic point of view rather than a social point of view (see economic liberalism, libertarianism and right-libertarianism).
American liberals are still right wing, they don’t have a real left
for the sake of learning, in what ways? As a non american I just get fed the stereotype that american liberals are blue haired lesbians who yell at everyone
There’s another commenter who posted better definitions just after you left this comment, fyi
Nah that’s just the stereotype for feminists (which is not at ALL representative of feminism)
You’re looking at the wrong axis.
American liberals mostly - though not exclusively - tend to be capitalistic. American conservatives are definitely capitalistic. Their disagreement largely centers around “should we or should we not make any attempt whatsoever to be egalitarian”
I.e. every country has a different relative scale/centre?
Yes but only if you remove the US from the math. With the US in the mix everyone except Russia and North Korea look like the left, and Russia gets moved closer to center than their government deserves.
Source: I’m in the US, it’s exceptionally stupid here lately.
It’s exceptionally stupid everywhere lately, you guys just got a head start, but we’re doing our worst to catch up.
In the broader world of politics, “liberal” usually refers to “classical liberalism”: representative democracy, a capitalist market economy with limited government involvement, and an emphasis on individual liberty over communal well-being. This is the ideology the US was founded upon (for white people, at least) and that it still largely embraces. Both major US political parties are liberal parties.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism
Within the US, the user of the term is very different. Republicans use the word “liberal” as a pejorative to describe anyone even slightly to their left. You could be a progressive, a social democrat, a communist, an anarchist, or simply a pragmatic individual who wants to fund libraries and public schools, and you would be branded a “lib.”
The problem here is twofold: First, the American political spectrum lies to the right of that of most of the first world (though many are playing catch up now), so Americans feel the need to distinguish between liberals and conservatives far more than between liberals and anti-capitalist leftists, therefore the latter two get tossed together. Second, “liberal” in America includes social liberals, which in the rest of the world would be called some variety of social democrat, but it can also refers to classical liberals (with the right marketing, i.e Harris and the Clintons), again making distinguishing between these groups difficult. So the distinction you want is the one between social liberals and classical liberals, which is as follows:
Social liberalism[a] or progressive liberalism[9] is a political philosophy and variety of liberalism that endorses social justice, social services, a mixed economy, and the expansion of civil and political rights, as opposed to classical liberalism which favors limited government and an overall more laissez-faire style of governance. While both are committed to personal freedoms, social liberalism places greater emphasis on the role of government in addressing social inequalities and ensuring public welfare.
Classical liberalism (sometimes called English liberalism[1][2][3]) is a political tradition and a branch of liberalism that advocates free market and laissez-faire economics and civil liberties under the rule of law, with special emphasis on individual autonomy, limited government, economic freedom, political freedom and freedom of speech.[4] Classical liberalism, contrary to liberal branches like social liberalism, looks more negatively on social policies, taxation and the state involvement in the lives of individuals, and it advocates deregulation.
They’re both liberals in that they both believe in capitalism and a free market economy, but they differ on the details of what the government ought to do or not to do within said free market economy. So to directly answer your question: In North America “liberal” usually refers to social liberals, while in the rest of the world it refers to classical liberals.
One difference is that U.S. liberals are still likely to believe in American exceptionalism.
Americans almost universally believe they are fundamentally the best - moral leaders of the world, even if they have temporarily lost their way.
The great protest folk singers from the U.S., such as Woody and ArlonGuthrie, the Seegers, and so many others, feel that they’re fighting the good fight to bring the U.S. back to where it was meant to be: the ‘leader of the free world.’
It’s an infectuous ego that taints the U.S. psyche on a deep and profound level.
They don’t use the word “liberal” to define whatever American liberals are supposed to be (not too xenophobic imperialists?), they don’t use the word at all tbh. Idk if it’s an Anglo thing or a particularly American one, though.
It’s because the default, globally, is now liberal. Liberalism was the movement away from monarchism. Conservatism was the movement to preserve monarchism in the face of liberalism. American liberals are liberal. American conservatives are also liberal. The alternatives are monarchist/conservative (generally only exist in countries with royalty still), communist/socialist, and anarchist (which has both right and left flavors, and even liberal flavors)
Bold of you to assert that the American right isn’t effectively a monarchist movement. Trump and his hangers-on have been stridently in favour of a presidency that is king in everything but name, and they have shown an abiding disdain for democracy since at least the Reagan era - though those dots connect backwards as far as you please.
They don’t believe in hereditary monarchy, they don’t believe that private property should be abolished and that the crown should dole out land based on politics. They’re liberals who want a strong executive that can champion the private property foundations of liberalism against the democratic foundations of liberalism. Remember, liberalism didn’t start because people wanted the common peasants to control the county, it started because the merchants wanted their ill gotten wealth from their rapacious adventures to translate into political power and the crown was not willing to allow lowly merchants to usurp multiple generations of aristocratic family ties.
Musk is a liberal, not because he loves democracy but because he justifies his actions on the basis of free speech, freedom to profit, private property claims, free movement of capital, and the rights the employer. None of these things are compatible with monarchy.
Yes, there is actually a monarchist movement in the USA still, but it is very very small and very fringe and they hold that position in a way that seeks to take the current owning class, turn them into a formal aristocracy, and eliminate not merely democracy but also the liberal foundations of capitalism. It’s anachronistic and impossible, but there are some who think that way
Most conservatives just want to go back to the liberalism of our forefathers that genocides and enslaved millions, when the poor and the women and the brown couldn’t vote because they weren’t considered fully human, and where conquest was a valid legal foundation for a state.
Musk funded a illiberal president that uses the power of the government to terrorize people with draconian anti-immigration policies and pushes highly destructive import tariffs. How much does Musk receive every year from government subsidies and government contracts?
Musk funded
With profits gained from private property
a illiberal president
Who built his whole wealth on private property and is actively attacking Venezuela for the crime of nationalizing (deliberalizing) their natural resources.
that uses the power of the government to terrorize people with draconian anti-immigration policies and pushes highly destructive import tariffs
None of which are illiberal
How much does Musk receive every year from government subsidies and government contracts?
A lot. Because he owns the companies that receives them. Because the system is a liberal system of private ownership and everything else is illegitimate in their eyes.
Musk receives govenment contracts and government subsities. Trump is using the government to terrorize people. Without the government he couldn’t deport people into foreign dungeons. Banishing legal residents into a foreign dungeon without due process is illiberal and authoritarian. Restricting free trade with massive tariffs is illiberal. Using his position as president to pressure a television network into firing a host is illiberal and authoritarian. The government could stop giving Musk subsities and increase the minimum tax on his companies.
Wait until you find out who developed the transatlantic slave trade…
It was the liberals.
You are using the word liberal to mean “moral”.
That’s not how it works.
Liberal can’t be the opposite of monarchic, fascist, communist, authoritarian, and protectionist all at the same time.
Protectionism is universal. Liberalism has nothing to say on it.
Use of authority is liberal. Have these gentlemen ever seen a liberal revolution?
You want liberal mean sugar and spice and all things nice. It doesn’t
Thanks for the explanation!
