But but Job Creators!
Newsome too busy pandering to shareholder grifters to actually do anything that helps the working class
thats why in the past,w hen he was a senator he had very little influence outside of a district he was in. hes was soso as a local politician, but not a Country wide one. and he seems “further right” than even biden, lol.
He is. He vetoes any bill not friendly to shareholders. It is pretty sickening the stuff he vetoes.
Honestly if Newsome wasn’t such a corporate pissant the state would probably have less problems overall. Prime example is that he vetoed an RCV bill awhile back, the California Congress is actually pretty progressive and largely isn’t gridlocked the problem is Newsome is a California aristocrat and needs to be fed to the Joshua trees.
china has alot of internal problems that they dont let the news get out, its not all fine and dandy in there either.
significant portion of thier youths have alot of tech/ or stem jobs but are unemployed, plus the increasing HCol and thier population problem too.
China: “We’re revolutionizing mass transit for 1.4B people”
America: “Okay, but they still have a lot of problems”
Yes, I’m pretty sure we’re all aware. Meanwhile over there in the US students with similar degrees can’t get a job they’re qualified for and need to dirk two jobs just to survive on the bare minimum.
So… The same, I guess?
And are you going to mention all the problems in the US now too? It’s not all fine and dandy here. China has plenty of problems just like any state. No one said otherwise.
MLS make world account to spread China good message ? Lol
Is that what they were doing with this post? I mean, it’s good to look to as an example for doing infrastructure and civil engineering right.
Its a shame that absolutely nothing in human history is simply good. We cant say “wow x did y right!” Because x also has an abysmal human rights policy, or did some war crimes 100 years ago or whatever.
Suddenly its not about x, its about z, and youre a piece of shit for thinking x ever did anything good when they also did something bad.
That’s a pretty strong case of whataboutism. Nobody said that anything was fine and dandy in China. Only that they planned to build a high speed rail and they did it, while the US repeatedly fails at the same thing.
It’s only whataboutism if it’s defense of a non-western country.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say.
A lot of their youth have tech jobs but are also unemployed? Do you mean under employed as in they don’t get full hours or something.
Is not comparing all internal issues of China and us. But you can’t deny they don’t have a plan and stick to it
The USA effectively does not perform governance in the sense that is meant by liberal democracies of the last century. That’s just not what the USA does, and it doesn’t make sense to compare it to a government that exists to serve its citizens.
Yes, serving citizens means giving millions in subsidies to billionaires for a scam that would only serve the upper class if it were even real.
It makes sense in the regard to illustrate that the US. Is lagging behind most other countries. They talk a big game as if they are the best in the world when they’re 50-60 years behind everyone else. To show a comparison for a government that does exist to serve its citizens, as opposed to a government that only claims to serve its citizens.
Whatever you think about China, you gotta give them some credit for their public transport. Right now, China’s total metro system length is almost equal to the rest of the world combined.
- China: 11003.004 km (6,855.591 mi)
- Rest of world: 12632.24 km (7,847.44 mi)
Furthermore, out of 12 longest metro systems in the world, 11 are in China. The remaining one is in Russia. Just crazy numbers.
This is probably unachievable in Western countries, since they expect the metro systems to make a profit, which makes no sense whatsoever. Some don’t, of course, and they, too, have respectable subway configurations.
This is probably unachievable in Western countries, since they expect the metro systems to make a profit, which makes no sense whatsoever.
It’s the difference between making profit
- Widening gulf between price and cost, then pocketing the difference
And value
- Widening the gulf between cost and utility, then increasing the overall value of the economic system
Businesses are absolutely profiting off Chinese HSR. They just aren’t the rail network operators. They’re the operator’s clients.
Incidentally, America does have comparable systems. We just do it for cars and planes, not trains
i have many issues with the ethics and morals that comprise the current chinese dynasty. but they are extraordinarily rational when it comes to the great imperial forces of the world. it costs a government less, long term, to implement big public works projects. the technology for high speed rail will reduce traffic jams, reduce infrastructure maintenance costs, and boost the economy but it will take 30 years to bear fruit? china will do that because it’s cheaper.
meanwhile here everything is analyzed and implemented in 2 year increments. it’s unsustainable
Do you direct those same ethics and morals that you claim to have towards the US or not? Otherwise your point is useless.
NASA was a 200% return on investment when it was cut due to being “too expensive” by Nixon
Every single universal healthcare system is cheaper than the US model.
Then there’s the consistent cuts to education where investments return 200%-1000%…
…
FWIW I think both US and China are terribly flawed systems.
Ids like comparing the Mongolian empire and the Crusaders. They both sucked ass.
“hey, this guy said all empires suck but that of the empires china is the most well run. let me just assume he doesn’t criticize or try to dissolve the empire he directly suffers under”
So we could build a coast to coast high speed rail line in a year if we really wanted to.
It is entirely about the political will. If they had it they could do it. We certainly have the resources and skills.
You forgot the part where California decides to dump Elon and keep going on it’s own project, only for Trump to try and shut it down.
California never cancelled the high speed rail, it’s just taking forever because it’s so easy to mire any project in bureaucracy and lawsuits.
On the plus side, it’s probably the hardest regulatory environment to do such things, so, once it’s finished, my hope is that it’ll lead to an explosion of high speed rail now that it can be done with the benefit of all of the lessons learned.
I mean, at least we’re still fuckin trying.
mire any project in beuracracy and lawsuits
That may have been true in the 2010s for cal hsr, but at this point the thing holding it up is just money. The environmental review is done for the segment between san Francisco and Los Angeles and everything has been cleared and construction is going on for the initial Bakersfield to Merced segment. There’s just no money to build it, the only consistent form of funding for it is California cap and trade sales which only nets $750 million annually on a project estimated to cost well over $100 billion. They occasionally get some money from the federal government only to have that taken away or suspended whenever trump gets in office.
That’s what really separates China from the US, the people in control of their tax dollars are using them to build infrastructure for the people instead of using it on billionaire tax breaks and to make jets and bombs to drop on Palestinians.
It’s more the fact that our topography is extremely difficult to make level to the degree that true high speed rail needs. Most of the environmental review, and land acquisition (the hardest and legal parts) are mostly wrapped up from San Jose into LA now.
The bigger issue with what’s made this project take more time IMO (and as a California resident) is that we basically refused the help of high speed rail engineers and designers from the EU and Japan. They showed up the day after the initial prop passed to help and we turned them away. We like to try and do things our own way here in Cali and sometimes that really bites us in the ass. I’d rather have some of those tax dollars “leave” the state or country in exchange for knowledgeable people helping us get it done faster.
Also, I’d advise anybody who can to drive around the Central Valley. The scale of high speed rail projects and the size of them is INSANE. Especially compared to the surrounding environment.
The topology of China is also hard to work with tbh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu–Chongqing_intercity_railway
Huh, I’ll have to do some looking into that.
I remember when the Texas Lone Star Rail project between Austin and San Antonio finally got “fully funded.” I was in college taking a transportation systems course, and one of our guest speakers was the director of the project.
I realized how doomed we were when I found out she was the only employee of the project and only worked 20 hours a week - almost all of which was speaking engagements.
Exactly- California has to negotiate with every landowner, government agency, business, etc. to build a railroad. China doesn’t have to deal with that. If they want to tear down a building, they just do it without caring much about the person they are taking it from. Authoritarianism is really good at doing big things really fast.
No they don’t. They offer compensation and if the owner still refuses they build around them. That’s what leads to all those wacky photos of highways going around a single house.
I’ve heard it mostly goes the other way (I mean even the US has eminent domain), do you have any examples of the wacky highways/railroads?
Google Chinese nail houses.
Thanks!
Those are a problem for business development not high speed rail.
tbf I’d rather have my landlord’s house eminent domain’d if it meant high-speed rail.
Pretty sure like 80% of it got put on hold indefinitely. They are doing only like Fresno to Bakersfield or some bullshit instead.
They’re not wrong. It’s mired in legal BS. Lawyers saw deep pockets and NIMBYS, and are dragging their feet through the courts and are making free money while costing taxpayers multiple of millions.
It’s why China is going to win. The west is fighting itself and only planning 4 years in advance. And can’t puss off the voters or we won’t get in again. Then it switches sides and everything gets torn down.
Where China just does it and can plan long term. At this point I don’t k kw which system is better. Used to think democracy but it just seems to crumble and honestly most people don’t care enough that they are easily controlled.
The west is fighting itself and only planning 1/4 years in advance.
FIFY
Democracy is being forced to vote for democrats or else we gets the republicans again? Sure.
Electoral Reform Videos
First Past The Post voting (What most states use now)
Videos on alternative electoral systems
Every system is imperfect when taken to its natural conclusion, that’s why most rich countries are moving towards social democracies in which capitalism is generally restrained, but that’s a fairly new thing in its own right, and what’s to say capitalism won’t corrode them in time? Very little, grand scheme of thing. This is why the founding fathers talked about a rolling revolution, needing each generation to see clearly as threats would be constant. Instead we watch Netflix while our decisions are made for us in halls we will likely never walk. Unfortunately I think we are in for the suffering phase, Hindus say we’re already in kali yuga, which is the FAFO end of the whole cosmic cycle, hopefully towards the very end if you believe in such things. Personally I think we’re just fucked.
that’s why most rich countries are moving towards social democracies in which capitalism is generally restrained
???
What planet do you live on? This is literally the opposite of what’s happening.
I read an interesting report about high speed rail development in Europe. It was comparing Spain and UK a lot. Spain has the biggest high speed network in Europe (second biggest in the world after China) and UK failed to build a single line after the costs reached $100B and project was scaled down. Spain is also building its network at lowest cost in Europe. According to the report the main reasons for that are:
- consistent political backing: all parties support rail development so over the last couple of decades the entire process was optimized
- consistent support on all levels of administration: central and local governments support rail so the plans don’t change all the time. proper planning can be done
- mature public-private cooperation: over the years government and private companies learned to work together to build quickly and cheaply while maintaining quality
What is happening in UK and USA is that high speed rail is a for-profit project for private companies. Government promises them $20B and they start building. If they finish the money dries up so they never finish. When they spend everything government gives them more money. They can’t cancel the project because thousands of people work on it so they just limit the scope making it less and less useful. In the end the rail doesn’t even reach the cities it was supposed to, less people can use it, everything stops being economically viable and the whole thing collapses.
Basically in Spain private companies make profit as long as building railways makes economical sense. In US/UK they make money for as long as government can fund them. Building anything is not the goal.
You can also look at Japan, where railroad isn’t even the main moneymaker for the companies that operate them (pretty sure some even run at a loss). Instead, it’s the hubs that those railroads create (ie all the real state connected to the stations which is owned by the railroad companies and can be rented out to businesses).
In essence, railroads shouldn’t be built because they’re profitable. They should be built because they’re a basic necessity for unifying a country/region. The profit comes from the increased mobility and the new hubs and opportunity that mobility can create. But most politicians are too short-sighted for this.
The Western business mindset isn’t compatible with this approach. If you have a business that has 2 portions and only one is profitable you split it and dump the unprofitable part. If the government forces you to do both you just cut costs from the unprofitable train making everything shitty for everyone.
The Asian cultural Zeitgeist has more focus on stewardship so if someone gives you a responsibility (public transit) and a privilege (commercial hubs) you understand that the great power comes with the great responsibility. You’re still a capitalist and get rich as fuck, but society benefits too.
Yes, railroads are rarely profitable. It’s usually a investment which you recover in the form of greater mobility and economic opportunities it brings. What happens in US/UK is that after years of pumping money into the project and cutting scope in desperate attempts to finish it it becomes impossible to recover it in any form because it simply doesn’t move enough people. Government sees it as a failure and is reluctant to invest in other projects. Without continuity private companies can’t plan long term and focus only on one project trying to get as much money out of it as possible. And the cycle continues…
Another issue is the car-centric culture of the US and the fact that rail and any other form of public transportation directly impedes upon the car companies’ profits (including building sidewalks). This means that any project has to fight an uphill battle against corporate lobbyists or avoid simply being bought out and disbanded like what happened to the various highspeed rail companies in the 2000s.
France is another interesting one to take a look at. I watched a video awhile ago on the history of highspeed rail in France, and if I remember correctly, while they’re culturally closer to the US and the UK, highspeed rail has a history as a point of competitive national pride for the French and so they’re culturally favorable to it because they’ve held the title for the fastest trains in the world a couple of times.
This was the most infuriating bullshit. Why is anyone listening to Musk? He’s there to line his pockets, that’s it.
I’m gonna be “that guy” for a bit and say that I was never into him even back when everyone loved him.
He’s there to line his pockets, that’s it.
Well, that and widespread promotion of fascism, misogyny, homophobia, and white supremacy.
People fall for the con man that only has “concepts of plans”, the con man with actual “plans” is literally invisible to them let alone a blind spot.
Musk has nothing to do with the woes of the California High Speed Rail project. He’s just commenting from the peanut gallery and getting picked up by the news. He admitted hyperloop was never a serious proposal and it never factored into the actual decision making process for the project.
The reason the project is so delayed is because of democracy. It’s a long distance route so it crosses many different county lines and properties along the way. Each of those counties have their own municipal governments involved and there are lots of private property holders along the way too. Couple that with the public consultations, the bidding for all the contracts, the environmental assessments (which are the bane of every construction project in California), and the high cost of labour for workers in California (and USA generally).
All of this comes long after the US had engaged in the process of outsourcing manufacturing and importing (in the form of undocumented workers and other low-skilled migrants) its construction workforce. This has left the US very badly equipped to handle large construction projects even after finally approving them. The US is a very different country, skill- and education-wise, from the New Deal era of the 1930s.
The reason the project is so delayed is because of democracy.
Next four largest high speed rail networks are in Spain, Japan, France, and Germany… which might not be perfect democracies, but are certainly far from the worst.
Democracy isn’t the problem, and you certainly don’t need to be a dictatorship to get things done.
It’s our court system specifically. Anyone can sue for anything, and litigation is used to solve the problem. It takes forever and billions are wasted on lawyers. That’s a big reason. Also the fuck-you-I-got-mine culture (NIMBYs) that use the courts disingenuinly.
A good listen that explains a lot of the reasons is The Big Dig, about Bostons huge infrastructure debacle.
China: We are building out infrastructure because it is good for our people.
The US: Auuuurrrggghh! WHoSe GoNnA PaY FoR ThiS!? WheN CaN I ExPecT a PROFIT!?
China: we are building out infrastructure because it is good for the people
Lemmitors: no, that’s actually because they’re very authoritarian, building public infrastructure for public use is exactly what evil dictators do
Reasonable people: no, it’s because it’s good for their people and economy, but that has no bearing on whether the country is authoritarian or not.
China Good and China Bad are equally annoying opinions to me.
I’d still choose to live in China over the USA any day though haha
But At wHaT CoST?
US: We need to make 500 more billionaires, and we could probably do both the same time, but why risk it.
Now at 48,000 km (30,000 mi) in total length, with plans to expand to 60,000 km (37,000 mi) by 2030. Currently 2/3rds of all high speed rail worldwide.
To be fair, China’s high speed rail network has also grown so quickly because there are no public consultations or similar. They just build it, the people be damned. If you don’t have a democracy, that works. But I would rather live in a democracy than an authoritarian state (at the same time, I’m glad I’m not living in the crumbling democracy that is the US).
Of course, what Elon is saying is total BS, and the US could have started much earlier - or, that is, improved the north east corridor and used that experience to bring more high speed rail to the US much earlier. But anyway…
Obligatory “but at what cost!”
And Chinese citizens consistently poll as being more satisfied with their election options and outcomes than Americans. Honestly, when you’re at the point where you’re saying that China is authoritarian but worlds largest prison state USA isn’t, you’re basically just giving up the game that you’re using the word as a euphemism for “non-western”
Chinese citizens consistently poll as being more satisfied with their election options and outcomes than Americans. Honestly
“What’s it like living in North Korea?” “Can’t complain”
Lol did you even read my comment? I specifically said the US democracy is crumbling. Three guesses as to what democracy crumbles into.
But yeah OK, China is a great democracy, go ahead and vote out the CCP. I’ll wait.
Funny how it’s always “crumbling” but never actually crumbled. Non-western countries are full on authoritarian, but western countries are only ever “maybe heading in that direction, possibly” even when they do even worse shit than China ever did.
Why role I vote out the CPC? It’s incredibly fucking telling that your idea of “democracy” is an incredibly popular party being removed from power because westerners don’t like them. Chinese citizens absolutely could vote them out if they wanted, but the in the western white supremacists idea of democracy, only the opinion of westerners matters.
How about you go ahead and vote out capitalist parties in the West, if they’re such great democracies?
Next four largest high speed rail networks are in Spain, Japan, France, and Germany… which might not be perfect democracies, but are certainly far from the worst.
Democracy isn’t the problem, and you certainly don’t need to be a dictatorship to get things done.
Germany is outright helping to perpetrate a modern Holocaust. They are a terrible democracy
The US has a population density of 37 people per square kilometer, the EU is 106, which is three times higher. China is 147 people per square kilometer.
By distance, those European rail networks are also tiny compared to what’s needed in the US.
A rail line from Seattle-Portland-San Francisco-Los Angeles alone would be longer than the entire highspeed rail system in Germany, and only connect 21 million people across those metro areas, half of which are in LA.
The German network covers around 60 million people in the Metro areas it covers.
LA to New York by rail is the same distance as the entirety of Spain’s rail system, and would have an even shittier coverage ratio. Not to mention even a direct trip would still take 14-16 HOURS, where a flight takes 6ish + a couple at the airport waiting for less than $100 return on a budget airline. Why the fuck would anyone take the train? Even if the train was free, it wouldn’t be worth it for anyone conducting business between those two places.
When distances get large, high-speed rail gets crushed by airplanes. The infrastructure for high speed rail is just too fucking expensive unless you’re moving absolutely massive numbers of people around.
“The glorious democracy where 75.000 people have gotten disappeared this year without due process can’t build a railway because it’s too democratic”
China has a higher sense of representative government than the US does.
The concept that a purely “authoritarian” state would build a widely beneficial and affordable public transportation system is an oxymoron. China built it because their railways were aging and they needed a new railsystem.
So China didn’t consult EVERY affected person or NGOs. But even in America, the govt does that and then just ignores all the feedback and does what they want anyway as long as there was a way for someone to make more money.
How is that an oxymoron? An authoritarian government isn’t excluded from doing good things. Most authoritarian governments have done some good, it’s just not an excuse for the authoritarianism or whatever else those respective governments are up to.
And take a closer look at California high speed rail. Public consultations have factored into how things are/were planned. It’s far from ideal, and especially in the US there are plenty of problems (take a look at Europe for better examples, even though they’re far from perfect). And at least in the US, there are elections that, as very imperfect as they are, the citizens still (emphasis on still) have a certain say as to how things are running.
I mean, yeah, working in the transit branch, I would love to ram things through the way they do in China - it would make my job way easier and I’ve had colleagues fantasize about it, but in the whole of things, I am glad that the people still hold a certain amount of power here. Unchecked power is never a good thing.
The US allows for eminent domain as well, no?
Most countries have a form of eminent domain, that isn’t an indicator for authoritarianism in and of itself. What’s relevant is the checks and balances that are applied, and if they’re effectively applied.
IE: it’s only authoritarian when non-westeners do it
Yes, but it’s a bureaucratic process that involves a lot of red tape and ultimately has to compensate the displaced property owner. It definitely gets abused sometimes, and property owners are often undercompensated, but there are at least thresholds that must be met.
In China, there is no private land ownership. Residents lease their land from the state. So if the state says a railroad is coming through, your lease simply doesn’t get renewed, and you no longer have the right to remain in your house. It’s efficient and highly collectivist, but discompassionate.
Those leases are 70 years long. China is not eminent domaining land by waiting half a century
The US will never have true high speed rail because they would rather deliver maximum profit to shareholders than acturally improve anything, thats why in a decade from now China will probrally still have a pretty good standard of living while the US will become a fascist undeveloped hellhole.
They’re going to be laying track in California in 2026. The roadway has been completed for 170 miles, and the environmental impacts completed for the entire phase one.
It’s slow and expensive, but it’s happening.
Sure they will. Any day now, right?
They just recently approved (November 26) the 3.5 billion USD RFP for track and systems, and the rail head for it is finally complete. So sometime in 2026 they will start laying track.
The climate might be past every tipping point, but by golly the people who own land weren’t treated unfairly.
BuT aT wHaT cOsT
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