Man, Russian propaganda really did a number on your country
US politics is a result of US propaganda
Still not entirely sure that propaganda didn’t originate from Russia. He and Putin are besties.
People blame Russians because the propaganda from rich Americans is so ever present it’s hard to notice. We’re like fish trying to see the water.
They spent $24 billion dollars over the past election. And that doesn’t even count all of corporate media. Ever notice how pretty much everything everyone on TV says benefits the status quo?
Sure, Russians are running whatever ops they’re running, but whatever they can do is a drop in the bucket next to multiple 24 hour news channels.
At least in Canada we have an ineffective third party that capitalists don’t even bother to capture.
The lesser evil argument again. We can research democracy and try to explain to the self proclaimed democratic world leader how it works (btw usa is rated extremely low on the democracy index)
What y’all are yearning for has a name
Democracy
Don’t let them pretend you have that when you don’t
“Which of these two ways do you want to be fucked,” is NOT democracy. Democracy is when power is accessible and attainable to any citizen with good ideas who makes the effort.
Helldivers is not as far from reality as one would think: managed democracy
In a democracy, no individual has any significant political power. Political power is only accessible collectively. Having good ideas and making effort may not lead to the collective wanting to follow your lead.
Honest my ass. They lie almost as much as their orange hogfather
I don’t vote for Republicans. Never have, never will. I do engage with Democrats, and tell them my needs and expectations.
Which they promptly ignore
Yeah, I try to vote for the progressive during primaries too.
The ruling class of America sees the mayoral elections of Mamdani and Wilson as more dangerous and threatening than Trump and MAGA.
Watching the Mamdani election play out was wild. Seeing the biggest challenge being 2 people from the same side argue and talk crap for months was disgusting. Siding with Trump on top of it all because of how scared they were. They were so desperate they had no choice but to not even pretend anymore, like when Biden magically started winning against Bernie in 2020. The next 10 years will be even weirder as more people catch on.
Should have elected Luigi
He wasn’t only here ticket.
That’s why they’ve been fighting socialist and communist ideology for over 100 years. It would give us real power in politics and they would lose the privileges afforded to them by the status quo.
You see, the DNC, leaders of the DNC, know that your only sensible options are voting for them or sawing your own legs off, and they know that the reasonable people know this and the loud people are not smart.
This means that any time they lose, they can use that opportunity to shift more towards the right, as they are for the most part old, rich, conservative people.
The only thing they actually fear, is people being consistent long term in both voting for them, and voting to replace them slowly with more progressive elements, but we’re back at the loud people being dumb and encouraging voter apathy amongst themselves and others because it feels cathartic to complain when this is exactly what the DNC wants. They want voter apathy so they can continue to shift to the right. If they kept winning, and progressives kept winning, they’d have no choice but to shift to the left.
It feels so obvious, but on this site, it seems you are seen to be crazy if you suggest anything other than some fantasy solution involving guillotines and a lot of “no, you go first”, or more self foot gunning.
“The only thing they actually fear is people consistently voting for them” sorry, what? Sure, voting to replace them with more progressive elements, but they aren’t afraid of people voting for them, and to not only assert that, but then to say that it “feels so obvious” and provide no further explanation is beyond absurd.
I’m voting for/supporting anyone that runs a campaign like Zohran’s. You’re young and don’t have fucking dried up raisins for brains? CHECK! you have actually progressive policies you run on? CHECK!! you don’t take money from AIPAC or billionaire donors? Fucking CHECK!!!
- Kat Abughazaleh for Illinois? Fucking CHECK!!!
- Rebecca Cooke for WI? Fucking CHECK!!
This sounds like the type of idealism that leads to the situation we have now, unless you’re referring to primaries, or state/local politics (Note: they editted their comment significantly to include more detail after I posted this).
One major problem we have now is not having a system similar to Canadas “no confidence vote” if the current administration isn’t working we shouldn’t be stuck with them for four years while they are a terrorist to the country.
No confidence votes don’t quite solve the problem, and honestly, Canada, with our first past the post system, is headed towards the same eventual doom of America.
Instead we should look more towards proportional representation systems.
Anything that isn’t that inevitably leads to 2 shitty parties people have to vote for the least bad amongst.
Now to be clear, no confidence is better in that its automatically applied if a budget can’t be passed etc, and it stops complete deadlock, but we still have huuuuuuuuuuuuge gaping flaws.
Fair point. I think there are many options, but not just one, and always happy to hear more.
Totally agree with you. I always view it as a big ship. It takes a long time to turn. If you keep voting left then it will keep moving left. But people say “both sides are the same” and then the right wins and the ship stops turning.
Plus since majority of the country is voting right, doesn’t it follow that a lot of politicians will start moving right? Why be far left if being a little left loses?
Ahem. If it’s a ship, we’d say it will change course to port/starboard. You’d also be surprised how quickly an aircraft carrier can jig a 180. Sauce: former sailor
You know what they say, If it looks like a duck and smells like a duck and creates an anonymous police force to round up immigrants and send them to camps like a duck…
You don’t have to out yourself like this
Tankies are fascists in red clothing.
This guy wants you to throw your vote away.
so edgy
This was made in like 1994
They mainly just want you to vote more than once every 4 years
please provide evidence
This guy wants you to keep doing the same useless thing, already obvious and ridiculed 150 years ago
Just commenting here so it’s high up enough to see: this guy is an admitted accelerationist. Position invalidated. Thanks.
LOL whatever clown, I’m sure everyone needs to hear about your bombshell discovery
This guy wants you to throw your vote away.
if industrystandard and anticolonial are against me, I know I’m doing something right. Let’s get tokenboomer and givesomefucks and universalmonkey here too.
That’s evidence you are a mindless tool for the people causing our problems
And this comment is evidence you don’t understand anything about anything
If recent history is any indicator of how much Democrats are willing to fight for what’s right, I have better things to do with my fucking time than vote. I’m done with them.
At least vote in the primaries
You’re absolutely right. We wouldn’t be in this mess if everyone who complains about the Dems had voted in the primaries.
If slightly less but still very much recent history is any indicator, that attitude is exactly what got us into this shit in the first place. One group isn’t doing what’s right, so let’s just hand victory to the group that pledges to do as much evil as they think they can get away with. Too many people with better things to do with their fucking time than keep a felon pedophile rapist wannabe-Mussolini conman out of office, I guess. Glad you got all the better things done though, with your fucking time.
Democrats got us into the mess we are in
Right, because the Republicans control the presidency, the house, the Senate, and inexplicably the supreme court, obviously it’s those darn stinking Democrats who did all this. Don’t get me wrong, I am livid at their inaction, but to throw your hands up and say “whelp, better just hand the Republicans the key to the castle” is at best defeatist and at worst actively destroying this country.
I hope you’re ready to hear that same refrain constantly and increasing over the next 12 months.
at worst actively destroying this country.
That’s the best thing that can happen for the rest of the world, constantly bullied and terrorised by the bipartisan regime.
But americans didn’t give a fuck about that. Now they cry bcs they got a taste of their own medicine.
Well guess what, we don’t give a fuck about you either, on the contrary.
Let Trump do his worst and you can all rot in hell where you belong.
The sooner the better.Ah, so you’re going mask off as just being a bad person? Nice.
yes you’ve got me.
Being against the cancer of the earth, that has invaded, carpet bombed, droned, bullied, regime changed or sanctioned half the world and helped terrorists or genocide regimes is being a bad person.
that’s a ridiculous thing to say
In 2020 they pushed a candidate with obvious mental decline and hid it for the next 4 years. Allowed him to study in the running until primaries were over so they could install another person that wasn’t trusted
That’s a lot of words for giving the nazis a pass for being nazis
Democrat ratchet effect gives Nazis a pass to be Nazis
If the last 24 hours is any indicator, the democratic party is cowardly, weak, spineless, and ineffectual and I refuse to waste another nanosecond on them.
If neither side is capable of, in your own words, “doing what’s right”, why waste time on either of them?
I think the main point is that the Democrats are all those things, and yet still more effective than you at pushing the country left, so people support them because it’s better than supporting Republicans
Because, as I already (rather pointedly, I thought) said, one party isn’t not doing “what’s right,” (Which are your words, actually. I was quoting you.) it is actively and aggressively doing what’s very, very wrong. If those two are equivalent to you, then by all means don’t vote, as you might just be doing the rest of us a favor.
Any vote in the oligarchy is a vote thrown away.
You should read more theory
Lenin is talking about participating in voting for our own candidates and government, NOT for supporting the bourgeoisie.
You are in duty bound to call their bourgeois-democratic and parliamentary prejudices what they are—prejudices. But at the same time you must soberly follow the actual state of the class-consciousness and preparedness of the entire class (not only of its communist vanguard), and of all the working people (not only of their advanced elements).
We’re still in the pretty heavy wake of McCarthyism, we’re not at “run our own candidates on the general ballot” yet, we’re at “vote lesser evil on the general ballot while we run our own candidates locally and try to win primaries”.
Whilst you lack the strength to do away with bourgeois parliaments and every other type of reactionary institution, you must work within them because it is there that you will still find workers who are duped by the priests and stultified by the conditions of rural life; otherwise you risk turning into nothing but windbags.
Even where there is no prospect of achieving their election the workers must put up their own candidates to preserve their independence, to gauge their own strength and to bring their revolutionary position and party standpoint to public attention. They must not be led astray by the empty phrases of the democrats, who will maintain that the workers’ candidates will split the democratic party and offer the forces of reaction the chance of victory. All such talk means, in the final analysis, that the proletariat is to be swindled. The progress which the proletarian party will make by operating independently in this way is infinitely more important than the disadvantages resulting from the presence of a few reactionaries in the representative body. If the forces of democracy take decisive, terroristic action against the reaction from the very beginning, the reactionary influence in the election will already have been destroyed.
- Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, Address of the Central Comittee to the Communist League, 1850
Karl Marx on liberal ‘lesser evil’
Yeah and I think 1) that was 175 years ago 2) that while a brilliant thinker on the subject of structures and inevitabilities, Marx was pretty naïve when it came to implementation.
Lenin’s push for participation in elections was due to the Duma which kept getting dissolved by the Czar for becoming increasingly anti monarchy. Between 1906 and 1917 several had been dissolved due to growing constitutional monarchy among the peasants.
Without historical context it sounds like lenin advocated participating in all bourgeoisie elections.
How dare you be reasonable and actually try and solve problems instead of just complaining and demonizing anyone who’s not left enough!
Removed by mod
Those supporting the oligarchy are the haters of democracy
LOL american doesn’t know better and thinks that is democracy.
Damn, he’s kinda got a point
It’s demoralizing that we have to wait out the old white men in order to have progressive thought.
Same energy as the Fox News classic “you complain about police violence but you never complain about gang violence”.
It’s the same picture.
[re-commenting with no instance shaming]
Every Marxist-Leninist user
Nothing lost by protest voting then
No rational or decent person ever refused to vote against Republicans in swing states.
So what you’re saying is that you already have every “rational and decent person” voting against Republicans every election and that’s not enough to win.
That’s the joke, yeah. I can explain the reality if you want though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_suppression_in_the_United_States
The issue isn’t one of rationality or decency. The issue is of exhausting a constituency with barriers and terrorizing them with criminal liability while controlling the privatized mechanism for counting votes
At some point, its two wolves and a sheep voting on what’s for dinner. “No harm in voting” totally misses the problem at hand.
Reform is a tool deployed by the oligarchy to stay in power. It stops progress and results in incremental fascism disguised as a lesser evil. Reform gives the illusion that voters have a part in deciding political outcomes despite several studies showing voters have zero influence in politicians and their policies.
Cool cool, so why does voting vs not voting matter? What actionable alternatives would you suggest and why do those preclude checking a box on a piece of paper?
I’d argue that even an illusory vote has value as a public barometer. If 80% of a voter base is consistently voting against the incumbent party it tells you way more about their discontent than 80% not showing up.
You’re correct about that. In a chapter titled, Should We Participate in Bourgeois Parliaments?, Lenin argues that there are a number of reasons why communists ought to participate in elections even if they aren’t an effective means of implementing change.
As you mentioned, elections can be useful for a public barometer, they can also be useful for promoting ideas, they can be used to test potential leaders for opportunism, etc.
The caveat is that those goals are only really useful in the context of an actual communist party. It doesn’t really do us any good to know that people are dissatisfied with the current ruling party if they just support a different bourgeois party. It undermines the ideas we’re trying to promote if we just sheepdog people back into the fold of incrementalism and lesser-evilism and having faith in the system. And it does us little good to test “leaders” who are already avowed anti-communists.
All of which is to say, there are reasons to participate in US elections, but not through the democrats, rather through a third party that actually stands for what we’re trying to promote, like PSL.
Really, the main reason that Lenin argues for participation in electoralism is for the sake of reaching people where they’re at in order to encourage them to pursue other, more useful approaches, such as strikes.
I appreciate the response, thanks for the perspective. From my view, I rarely see this line of reasoning in the wild. The “participation” in elections begins and ends with “Both parties bad. Vote for [the nebulous idea of] a third party”. In my opinion, if you can’t give a concrete name and put in enough effort to get it on the ballot then you’re not actually participating.
As a example: I heard complete silence from this portion of the left during the NYC mayoral race/Mamdani’s campaign. No mention of (let alone stumping for) a more progressive alternative. Now with his win, there’s no discussion about parlaying that turnout into other elections. Only attacks on his international politics (not sure why that matters for a mayor) or projected future failure.
Nothing about that approach indicates any good faith engagement with progressive politics in the electoral space. In that sense it’s completely indistinguishable from the right’s suppression and defeatism.
From my view, I rarely see this line of reasoning in the wild
As a example: I heard complete silence from this portion of the left during the NYC mayoral race/Mamdani’s campaign. No mention of (let alone stumping for) a more progressive alternative.
I’ve seen quite a bit of discussion about this, personally. Here is a thread on Hexbear from a week ago with people arguing back and forth over this point. And if you search “Zohran” you’ll find plenty of comments celebrating his win.
Only attacks on his international politics (not sure why that matters for a mayor)
It doesn’t really matter that much as a mayor, but it does matter somewhat if he’s treated as a leader, representing ideas beyond his official capacity. And that sort of thing is why Marxist participate in electoralism in the first place.
It’s a complicated issue.
Another Rosa Luxemburg fan I see. She spoke the gospel.
Reform is a tool deployed by the oligarchy to stay in power.
Its a political relief valve to limit the scope of corruption and the degree to which the public experiences pain. If you’re in the corona of folks who enjoy relief via reform, it is often enough to quell your desire to overthrow the system. If you’re not, it costs you support - often along ethnic or regional lines - in a way that divides your neighbors against you.
Reform gives the illusion that voters have a part in deciding political outcomes
Voters are deciding political outcomes. Large waves of angry voters do change policies by forcing the government leadership into a reform cycle. This is often preferable to violent confrontations between an increasingly unpopular state leadership and growing crowds of dissidents.
Reform isn’t an illusion. It has material consequences for a subset of the angry populace. Soothing this populace and winning them back to the establishment’s side is why reforms work as a mitigation of revolution.
The illusion is in the belief that reforms aren’t necessary. Government leadership pumped up on its own hubris will often exceed the limits of the institutional system and undermine their function. Because reform requires appeasing people outside your immediate interest groups, they can often be characterized as an act of weakness rather than a strategic concession. And leadership that relies on the impression of strength (and the overt displays of brutality) can abandon reform as a vehicle for tempering hostility to policy changes, leading to revolutionary movements.
studies showing voters have zero influence in politicians and their policies
Studies have shown a large gap between public opinion and public policy. What these studies regularly neglect is the popular rejection of ostensibly favorable public policy, often in the wake of a short term media campaign or sudden economic shift, which temporarily change their historically stated positions.
Consent can and does get manufactured. And this consent is reflected in subsequent election results.
You are confusing MLs with anarchists. MLs always think of the strategic importance of elections and choosing the lesser of evils.
That is absolutely not descriptive of the general comments and sentiment upvoted in the ML instance.
“Both sides are the same but the dems are worse” - said by nobody who is paying attention. There is a reason ‘both sides’ is exclusively weaponized towards one party and not the other.
this meme doesn’t say they are worse
Yes it does. “They are both terrible in every way, but the dems are also dishonest gaslighters.”
you are deciding that is worse. the meme does not make that value judgement.
You are deciding that gaslighting is bad. The meme doesn’t say that.
Is that really your take?
It’s really sad to see how many people fall into the trap of party identity instead of thinking for themselves.
It’s incredibly obvious that the Democrat leadership and establishment has long since stopped caring about their constituents and prioritized corporate interest.
It’s so frustrating that people have become so wrapped up with party identity that they can’t just not see the cancer, they actively defend it.
“Blue no matter who” and the general response to this meme is so fucking stupid because it keeps the corrupt establishment in power and sidelines the actual progressives.
Edit: I bet you people are mad that Cuomo lost because you all obviously love your establishment shills so much.
“Both sides bad” is a thought terminating cliche designed to deter people from honestly comparing the two parties and seeing the gulf between them. I’m not defending the dems. I’m not defending the two party system. I’m not defending any of it.
There is an active authoritarian takeover of our country, which is right now taking away people’s rights. Harassing them for what they say, and shipping them out of the country without even the token gesture of checking their legal status. They have already tried to prevent a peaceful transfer of power, and confidently talk about ending term limits.
For some reason supposed leftists have no interest in this, and would rather do the far right’s work for them. Do you think these things would be happening no matter who was in power? Push the party left in primaries and local elections, fight for ranked choice to make third parties viable, call out the dems when they do something bad. Don’t pretend the two sides are the same, and don’t imply that voting is a waste or counter-productive.
RE your edit: Why are you so antagonistic to people saying it’s important to vote against the far right? Mamdani was the clearly better option, and I hope his proposals are proven effective. This is the kind of local election win that can nudge the party to the left. Just don’t disown him the moment he is seen working with dem leadership.
Do you think these things would be happening no matter who was in power?
Yes they would be, but in different ways. Democrats always set the stage for Republicans to commit crimes against the working class. Trump put kids in cages built by Democrats. Trump militarized ICE and deportations after Democrats increased their funding to their highest levels with the largest increase of detention center construction. Liberals were outraged when they found Trump was denying due process to those he deported while ignoring Obama did the same thing with upwards of 75% of those he deported denied using a law signed into law by Bill Clinton.
And the Democrat ratchet effect prevents anything started by Republicans from ever slipping back.
Push the party left in primaries and local elections
This is another failed strategy that’s never worked, after electing them they have no obligation to fulfill their promises, all they need to do is create another manufactured crisis before the elections that require everyone to come together and defeat their imaginary foe, ‘the most important election of our lifetime.’
Calling out Dems when they do bad holds no weight when they know you will come back afterwards and reward their bad behavior with reelection.
Would you agree with this statement? “Both sides are irredeemably bad, people should not vote or participate in American politics”
They are not equally bad, the side that poses as an ally and a protector of is the marginalized while actively causing them harm is by far worse.
So you agree with the statement? Or are you saying the dems are meaningfully worse so people should participate in opposition to them?
Both sides bad
no one said this. you are fighting a strawman
That is literally the content of the original post that spawned this entire conversation.
no, it’s not. The content of that post is explaining why they criticize Democrats more than they criticize Republicans. it’s not saying “both sides bad”
“both sides bad”
How does it do that? The winner will be red or blue. Your options are whatever fascist the red side puts up, or whatever the blue side puts up. If you vote in primaries, maybe the blue option will be good. But even if it’s a corporate shill, that’s still a better outcome than the fascist.
If withholding your vote, or voting for a third party with no chance of winning, was going to make the DNC change their approach, it would’ve worked in 2016. We got Biden in 2020, obviously that strategy isn’t working.
If you want progressives off the sideline, they need support in the primaries. Ignoring electoral strategy is so fucking stupid.
Republicans don’t pretend to care. We know exactly what to expect from them
Still doesn’t make both parties the same. People saying they’re the same are trying to convince you not to vote, which consistently benefits one party and absolutely does not move our government to the left.
What have the Democrats done in the last 10 years to stop the GOP? Every ossue America faces comes from infettered capitalism eating away at society like a cancer, but they still egg it on. The party exists to collect corporate donations and make people feel like they can change their lives if they just vote a little harder.
Voting for either right wing party doesn’t move to the left either
They’re further left than not voting
When there are only two parties, the one to the left of the other becomes the left wing party. It’s not rocket science
The problem arises when both parties keep moving to the right.
On the political scale, Democrats currently sit on what was considered far right 30 years ago. They keep in lockstep with Republicans as they shift further to the right, filling the void Republicans have just left behind
It’s a little to the right vs so far right you get whiplash. They’re still not the same. Do you think any of this would’ve happened under Biden eventually? Of course not.
It already fucking did.
Biden did a lot of good work. He also let Trump have this second term.
It’s like you people always forget how much the high road costs everyone.
Great that people got some benefits… for a couple of years. Now they will suffer fascism for who knows how long.
“You should vote blue” except Mamdani.
Why can’t you see that dems don’t want the majority? They don’t care about the poors? DNC has betrayed progressives at every turn, but they are the lesser evil!!1!
Fuck no, they just make you complacent, lash out at leftists, and stop any critical observations.
Every election they could make amazing campaigns about how awesome life could be if the country turned left. Instead they just point at GOP and scream ‘they will murder transfolk and immigrants’, which is true. But that is not the path to victory.
‘Dems never had all three brances of government’ - then they aren’t doing their jobs. Simple as that.
What I find mindblowing is how people are so quick to blame Democratic voters for something that the Republican party has been orchestrating for so long, and blame them for the limited choices that they have at the ballot box, as if they were personally responsible for the choices they were presented with, instead of pointing at the leadership within the DNC that has been compromised.
“You should vote blue” except Mamdani.
Do you see any other Mamdanis anywhere besides AOC and her posse? Do you remember what happened with Bernie and the DNC despite people’s overall enthusiasm for him?
Why can’t you see that dems don’t want the majority?
Why can’t I not see it? A lot of them are DINOs, and it’s clear as day. And yet, the people like Ms. Crockett who have been pushing back nonstop on the Senate floor this entire time would never let this happen if it were up to her. You fail to realize your own point: that the Democratic party is heterogeneous with conflicting interests and not by choice of the constituents.
you people
Turn that divisive shit down.
Yeah, I remember Bernie very well. Specially the presidential campaign. I remember the backstabbing at every turn. It was so sad and painful to watch. Only to give Trump his first turn.
That was exactly the DNC’s doing. They do it again and again.
the Democratic party is heterogeneous with conflicting interests
Yes, it’s almost as if it was never meant to accomplish anything. It’s almost as if it was hijacked by corpo shills just waiting to stand against any real progress, while appearing helpless when it’s needed.
lol
8 Senators don’t vote the way you want and now EVERY Democrat is a fascist.
Embarrassing childish fucking nonsense.
So they’ll be called out by their Democrats in Congress, right?
And recalled soon too, right?
Or will they stay in office as they fuck over us by giving into Republicans? Putting my money on that one, personally.
And they just happened to be people retiring, convenient, no way this is with the blessing of Schumer and the DNC…
Dick Durbin is the minority whip.
If you don’t realize this represents the Dem establishment at its core and those 8 were carefully selected you are genuinely hopeless
Schumer and Ossoff we’re also orchestrating it, so they’re equally to blame.
Getting mad at all the others who are just as furious about the caving is idiotic though yeah
8 Senators don’t vote the way you want and now EVERY Democrat is a fascist.
8 senators vote the way you want and now you’re calling anyone who doesn’t love it a child. Standard centrist.
Amazing how they blame us for telling the truth and then lie to us and say we’re the morons.
Says the guy crying and stamping his feet because someone has a different (and more accurate) opinion
I have a bridge to sell you.
you read a different meme than I did
Liberals will read any meme that calls them out and then hate progressives more.
Scratch a liberal…
“Progressives”
Lmao
“Liberal”
Lmao
