For Context: I’m Chinese American, and I do not feel “ashamed” for my heritage, neither do I feel “ashamed” for being a US Citizen.
The CCP is not my fault. I do not feel any shame of saying I’m from China.
Similarly, the trump admin is not my fault, I voted Harris. I do not feel any shame for being American.
So what is the thought process of people feeling shame/guilt?
I feel deeply embarrassed about being from the US. It’s like hanging out with a group of friends out of necessity, later realizing they were all assholes, and trying to come to terms with the fact you spent so many years with them. I live outside the US now and I’m even more embarrassed to be from there. Every time there’s some culture shock my takeaway is either “wow how did I normalize this broken aspect of the US” or “I wish I was from somewhere that didn’t do those things to that person’s country”.
I also feel embarrassed and guilty over getting out of the US. I worked in tech and now I’m living off tech savings to start a life outside the US. I left my friends behind many of them are struggling financially, I left my community behind many of which are actively homeless, I chose to leave. Sure I’m leaving in part because my trans ass is on the chopping block but I see a lot of trans people fight harder instead of flee. I fought for so many years though and I couldn’t keep doing it so I left. The US did this to my community, made me confront choices I never wanted to make, I’m disgusted by having paid taxes to the war machine, and I justify working in tech as a way out of there but really I feel guilty over choosing to buy into that side of the US too so I could secure personal safety.
Living in the USA myself, I feel shame at how I normalized and rationalized the horrible aspects of this country. I’d already been a minimalist and was anti-consumerism from before I was an adult; but I had downplayed the severity of our systemic violence until it hit me personally. Above all I wish I was doing more to fight this system, like the people you described.
For as long as I am alive I will stay in the USA. I’m not going to give up on holding out here, as miserable as I’ve felt this last year. I’d like to believe something I do may someday inspire others who are braver and have more resources to do something more concrete.
Don’t feel guilty for seeing the signs and getting out whilst you still can. Millions of people throughout history haven’t been as fortunate.
Once Trump and Project 2025 is done with immigrants you can bet your arse the pendulum will swing onto LGBQT people in earnest
Not the pendulum. The gunfire.
guilty over getting out of the US
Please don’t feel guilty for leaving somewhere you don’t like. That is your right. Stay safe, friend.
You have nuanced take on things. That’s a rarity here on lemmy. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if a few of the lemmunists show up to tell you how your take on China is entirely wrong.
And speaking of nuance- the overwhelming lack of it here is pretty much the answer to your question.
Strangely, people seem to hate when blanket definitions are used to describe them, while also seeming to love using them as a weapon against others when under the Manufactured Outrage spell.
For instance, I too voted for Harris, and I’ve been called a gEnOciDe suPpOrTeR, a bOoTLiCkEr, and. bLuEmAga™. Just for voting against a fascist.
Looking for a nuanced take here is like looking for it in a gradeschool classroom. It’s best not to take any of it seriously.
For instance, I too voted for Harris, and I’ve been called a gEnOciDe suPpOrTeR, a bOoTLiCkEr, and. bLuEmAga™. Just for voting against a fascist.
The hatred between left leaning Lemmy users over the last election is crazy to me. Instead of focusing on getting rid of the current fascist regime together, so many just dogpile on anyone based on whether they voted for Harris. I feel like every other political post has a flame war that starts with a comment blaming the news on anyone and everyone on the left who didn’t vote Harris or criticized dems during the campaign.
There are those of us with a bit of nuance though. I was and still am disgusted and disappointed with the Dem’s positions and empathize with those who sat out in 2024 but I voted Dems them over the party looking to fast track fascism and white nationalism. I regularly get flamed for suggesting we move on from blaming each other and focus on getting rid of the fascists here and now.
It’s a sort of in-group cringe.
Why is it not our fault? Shouldn’t we be responsible for our society? If you’re not responsible for your Society then what incentive is there to change it? We should feel guilty. America’s only the way it is now because we all failed.
I’m from the US but left to live outside it. I will NEVER FUCKING EVER call myself an American, much less a proud American. I’ll call myself a NYer because I owe most of who I am to that state/city, but I am ashamed about the country I grew up in and absolutely do not want to be associated with it. The US government has only ever caused me and my people harm.
Hmm… So these posts are now coming up on lemmy. Seems like lemmy is getting on the radar for some mainstream narative control.
Adding that “chinese” bit is a nice touch.
Let me steal all your shit and then give it to my children and then disappear. I’m sure you won’t mind, right? and you’ll let them have it, cause it’s not their fault.
K thanks, Bye!
It’s not shame so much as deep embarrassment for the current state of our country. We look like fucking morons on the world stage. Thankfully we will move on from this stage in our history, but the stain may remain for decades to come.
We look like fucking morons on the world stage.
The only sort of solace to this, is that many other countries are clearly following the same path, so its not something inherent to just the US. Idiots are everywhere, and they vote.
Everyone is pointing to the US, but the same initial precursors are happening under their own nose.
Canada has voted against the populist right for the last decade. And each time the Conservative party chooses some one more right wing. And each time they get a bit closer to winning.
Trump galvanized people last time, scared them away from the right. This time he seems to be inspiring the right wing politicians, and people live it.
I don’t know if we can hold out much longer.
i hate when people shit on the US but don’t acknowledge any sort of solutions to put in their own country to avoid this situation
The easiest solutions to the US problem are already solved in most other western countries. That’s why the US is the first (and at this time, the only one) that turned fascist.
Legal guns are uniquely a US problem. Having a system that only allows 2 political parties is a uniquely US problem. Limitless (in the billions!) political donations is a uniquely US problem. Relying on the stock market for retirement is a uniquely US problem.
I’m not saying that the rest of the western countries turning fascist is impossible, but it’s much harder. Most fascists are contained to their fascist political party. So until there aren’t enough fascist individuals, they can be mostly ignored. Of course, once they are enough fascists, the fascist party will inevitably win, and there’s nothing that can stop them at that point.
False equivalency.
Oh look a Canadian that can’t see their own descent into the far right fascist rabbit hole on the horizon. Somehow even watching the US, you seem to still be headed that direction as if it couldn’t possibly happen in Canada. Because… reasons?
How is it a false equivalency? It’s the same exact people astroturfing the movements in those places too. It’s literally the same phenomenon
When the rest of the world hates you for shit a minority of your country did, but succumb to generalized thinking and blame all Americans (looking at you, Europe), a guilt complex can be internalized.
Hating every American or having prejudices like believing every American tourists are obnoxious is bad.
But saying you hate what “America” is doing is fair, because the Country is represented by its political class
Did they fulfill their civic duty? Did they meaningfully fight to defend their cause?
If they fell short of their own expectations, they’ll feel shame.
One word:
Tribalism.
It’s shaming to see people and institutions you were proud of and bragged about being the best, then devolve into something the rest of the world laughs at.
American liberals would sooner say that the nation is impure than that nationalism is pathological. Many of them literally identify with the state as part of or representative of themselves. Guilt and shame are American rationalisation staples, “I feel bad, but I’m not going to stop.”
So for anyone keeping score at home:
This is exactly what OP is talking about. Instead of answering the question with anything even remotely resembling a nuanced take- we have instead, decided to make an uneducated blanket assessment of an entire group of people based on zero evidence and a lack of qualifications to make such an accusation.
For example, I am an American liberal. And everthing they said doesn’t even come close to describing my stance on the issues of nationalism or how I feel about my take on personal political representation.
But one should never let this get in the way of a good ol’ blanket statement! Because nothing says “no need to take anything I say seriously” any louder than this.
I’m just embarrassed as fuck
To the point of being furious…
China has been China-ing for a while, we get it. America’s actions are relatively fresh, and a majority of us DID choose him. While I’ll immediately reassure people that I didn’t vote for him, the fact that I have to separate myself from what’s going on comes from a sense of shame over that.
That said, if I met a Russian I wouldn’t necessarily hold the invasion of Ukraine against them… But I might have to ask if they really support that shit.
a majority of us DID choose him
77m voted for Trump which is 32% of the voting age population.
As a percentage of the overall population it is ~23%.
America’s actions are relatively fresh,
At the risk of being annoying as shit, that is not true. The only fresh part is that Europeans and/or white people are feeling a small part of the heat too.
was just going to say this. anyone who thinks this is new didn’t pay attention in history class, or that history class conveniently glossed over or romanticized our many, many atrocities.
American education has always been a complete shitshow. Recently I realized that I never actually knew anything about the war of 1812 because the extent of what was taught to us in fucking NY was like a single page in a textbook. Unless you took AP you didn’t learn shit.
I’ve learned more about it now, I’m just pissed that my education didn’t actually cover jack shit.
It’s by design
I don’t think public education is meant to make people informed, one of it’s goals is mass indoctrination. It’s the same in almost every country. I’m fortunate to be one of the people that recognize that. Me being in two spheres of influence make it so easy to identify what propaganda looks like, I seen it on both sides, two different countries, how media, like tv shows, portrays things.
They want obedient people to keep the cogs of the machine running. They want nationalism and absolute obedience to the state, the government.
In the US, at least, there are a lot of reliable sources on internet, and also public libraries… but of course, poor people don’t have time to educate themselves, just as its designed. The lower class, different countries, similar story.
majority of us DID choose him.
Sorry I’m going to be that guy but the majority of us didn’t vote for him. He won by a plurality, meaning he got the most votes. Majority would mean he won by at least 50%, which he didn’t.
Your point still stands, but trump tries to say he won by Majority. He did not. He does not speak for most Americans
Ok, a majority of voters, not a majority of us, but as another commenter said if you sat this one out you basically helped the winner and I’m absolutely going to blame you for it
Ok, a majority of voters
Plurality of voters, didn’t get more than 50% of all votes
China has been eliminating poverty for quite some time. In fact, over the last 70 years, China accounts for 80% or more of the entire global poverty alleviation gains. The US has created more poverty in that same time.
But also, the US has been racist, violent, colonialist, jingoistic, misogynistic, and white supremacist since it’s founding. You know those propaganda images DHS posts on Twitter? Those are from the US’s time of westward expansion. This isn’t new. What’s new is that we have given up on trying to hide it, which is something we did for for the last 70 years. But even in the 40s we had concretation camps, we had open racism in all of politics, we had the second largest Nazi group in the world.
And after WW2? Operation Paperclip? Operation Gladio? The US openly staffed NATO with Nazi officers. The US openly advocated for Nazi politicians to lead West Germany. There were literal Nazis running West German after the war.
And then of course the Korean War. The Vietnam War. The Irag wars. The Afghanistan war. The embargo against Cuba. The coup in Iran.
This is what the US is. Nixon banner heroin explicitly to imprison black people. We have slave labor producing billions of dollars in value annually. And we punish our prison slaves who don’t work by giving them solitary. All of that is massive gross human rights violations, things we’ve pretended to invade other countries for.
This is who we are. It’s not new.
Considering voter turnout is ridiculously low in America the majority of us did not choose Trump. Just less than half of those that voted did which is 32% of the population. Also, Trump was not exactly the start of American decline, it is more like he is a symptom of it. A reaction to it if you would. American has been a violent an oppressive nation that we should be ashamed of for roughly 250 years. Trump is just very good at making that obvious.
Not voting is a vote for the winner by default. I highly doubt that every single person that didn’t vote did so due to being unable to.
I believe the shame stems from the moral injury we all suffer when we peacefully stand by in a democracy and let bad people control the government and inflict serious harm on innocents
So in some respect it is in fact all of our faults because we do in fact sit by and watch people die so we can respect the democratic process.
I feel that way but because I’m human.
We are not good people.
